Lady Akasha.....

In reality, all submissions are appreciated, whether walls, complex skin suites, or simple tentative steps at one's first Beatnik skin.  There is a simple 'restriction' on the wallpaper section to limit its unchecked growth/expansion.

What most people will see here on the message board, however is the 'public face' of angst and dissent...of people with various concerns for the site and a yearning for its improvement in one form or another.

Usually that is either heated or confrontational in people's attempts to be heeded, but often is only the public perception of alleged 'wrongs', which often are dispelled in more private discussion/s.

What may be seen as a public 'failing' can also be reciprocally the very same impetus that has seen Admins/moderators give up in frustration....the old 'damned if you do, damned if you don't' quandary.

Sure, any 'community' has problems of its own, and Wincustomize.com is certainly no different from all the others.

However.

A long history of interaction with all of those other skinning and skin-related sites has shown that exactly none of them is totally devoid of some 'issue' or 'characteristic which is less than desirable'.

The price paid for relative success is the 'tall poppy syndrome' where some demand  a knee-capping [OK, mixed metaphor but you probably get what I mean].

Rather than listing other site's deficiencies, it's more appropriate to suggest listing attributes here....weighing pros and cons to determine worth.

The ultimate frustration is when effort is expended on the part of all those directly involved with the survival/maintenance of the site and the outcome is a public declaration of abject failure buoyed by a perception that there is some great exodus.

The only REAL exodus occurred within the skinning community when eFront destroyed skinz.org's reputation [at the time] when its [eFront] CEO was publicly on record for condoning the raping of a client.....[amongst other things].

Both the public and private response to anyone's determination to 'leave' is a simple 'don't'.  Very little will ever be achieved from without....far more can be achieved from within. 

The 'desire' to leave is the exact signal that you should stay....you see a need for improvement...a failing that needs attention.....contact an admin for serious input.....it's a better solution than the usual 'I'm leaving' thread that is jumped-upon by sympathisers and by the surly 'good riddance' brigade, ultimately leaving no option but to go.

Stay....and talk.  You know my addy...

 

Yes,please dont go Akasha.I enjoy seeing your work here and I cant get DA's site to load.The wall situation does need changing but we wont change it by leaving.No Rules has a very good idea for doing away with moderation,maybe we can convince them to consider it.Bad as I hate being rejected I dont want to see this site become another filled to the brim with every little scribble that someone wants to upload.I agree with you about Frogboys post tho,...that was pretty disheartening.If we stick around maybe we can change HIS mind on the subject.Stick around,..your way to talented to lose!

Here is a simple solution: Nuke the wallpaper section from wincustomize.com and create a new site just for wallpapers, something like wallcustomize.com. Just moderate it to keep the porn off of it.
And also, Frogboy , while I agree with your comment,but as you are one of the top authoratative figures here, you were completely out of line. Your comment probably just started a landslide that will hurt stardock in ways that you can't even imagine at the moment.
[Message Edited]

Phoon...to all intents and purposes, Frogboy IS Stardock.

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community, providing for its [the site's] very existence.

I am sure if any potential existed for 'hurt' this was considered prior to comment....

"Wallcustomize.com" is a highly unlikely proposition, though 'other' alternatives/solutions are being proposed...

 

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community,

Jafo ....
It is also a 'commercial' enterprise in that Stardock proggies are the core of site ... and I mean that in the sense of 'good business sense'... not as a putdown.

wombat....true, but as with several other companies involved in the 'industry', Stardock could rely wholly on those 'Public sites' to host skins and promote awareness of the 'product' but preferred to assist skinning's longevity and viability by creating a substantial presence which suports the other sites through shared traffic load, etc....

Look out John Howard and Simon Crean!

This site exists largely due to his generosity towards the skinning community, providing for its [the site's] very existence.

"

Stardock could rely wholly on those 'Public sites' to host skins and promote awareness of the 'product'

Please get real! He hosts these skins because they sell HIS product at a PROFIT, better than if they were hosted on a "public site. This site is part of the cost of doing business and is factored into the cost of all Stardock products. Frogboy is a BUSINESS MAN, NOT A PHILANTHROPIST.
I'm sure he feels he is making plenty of money from Stardock (which is great) to be able to ocassionally be rude to his customers and the artists who (for free) help him sell his products.
Think about it, If he had to pay every artist who makes a skin that helps sell his products, or if he had to make them all himself, i'm sure this site would not exist as it does!
If you look around there are many programs that are skinnable but since most of them have to pay for the skins, the numbers of those skins are quite limited.
Frogboy has some great products, but i believe he and some of his admins/moderators are being rude(and some down right nasty) to the people who support HIS pocketbook.
Go Figure.

OMG hashonboat has said it all...Been reading all this mess since day one and i agree 100% with Apo_67,GA,Lady...And now with hashonboat,He has said EVERYTHING THAT WAS NEEDED TO BE SAID ON THIS COMMENT...And like he said,If it wasn't for this wonderful designer,Skiners etc! That work so Hard for 'FREE' This site would not be here...

I just what to know if I have this all correct.
Anyone except the moderators can have a bad day and go off on people because something that was said was that "straw that broke the camels back" for them.
I am by no means saying that Frogboy may have not have meant to be so harsh "that would differently not be my place" but why is it that he is not aloud to go off on people himself.
I keep reading that people think that the admins and moderators should be more involved with the community. Then I hear there are too involved and try to run a dictatorship.
You cannot say that this site is not being moderated properly and at the same time state that is should not be moderated at all.
Comments made that people have to agree with the way things are run to get anywhere on this site is just plan wrong. Not agreeing with something does not mean having to smear it all over the message board for everyone to see. I myself believe that these things should be taken up in private.

#6 by Sir Green Armani - 7/26/2003 3:33:05 PM All hail Deviant Art Great community.........great artists..............great friends............NO MODERATORS!!!!! #8 by Madam Lady Akasha - 7/27/2003 2:23:16 AM Here Here Green Armani! Hail Deviant Art! FRIENDLY Community.......... Indeed GREAT Artists.....Great Friends INDEED.........AMEN TO NO MODERATORS....and art to your hearts content! Welcome to DA Apocalypse!!!!!!!!

Those comments sums up this whole thing for me. What I see is people not liking work being moderated, so instead of adjusting their talents they go somewhere where it will be accepted...good or bad. WC is second only to DA in terms of size, and they don't even have the 100,000,000,000 wallpapers and indy art stuff that DA has. This is JUST skins, not skins, walls, indy art, poetry, blah blah blah. So for a site that hosts JUST skins it seems to be doing DAMN WELL. Now here you guys are complaining that Frogboy doesn't like the customer. How about you think of it from their point of view rathter than your own. It cost's a lot of money to hold 3300+ wallpapers and then let however many people download them all for free. Being that the skins on this site do promote Stardock and their apps, ofcourse he's going to favor them. To him, wallpapers are here as a convienence thing for customers. It's like walking into a candy store and they have a bucket of bazooka gum for free, but then you walk in and complain that there's no cherry flavor gum! Get real people. I do not need WC for wallpapers, I find the vast majority of them suck anyways. You have thousands of other sites to get walls from, but not a single site other than WC will have better SKINS! That is why I am here.

[Message Edited]

but hashonboat has not said anything truthful in his post.  In fact, his last post is the most untruthful melodramatic pack of lies I've ever seen posted here. But if you feel that supports your own conclusions you must go with it. I do recomend you examine your motives and try to find what is really true at some point.

Bottom line, as a moderator I feel terribly insulted by comments like these. That however would not affect how I moderate walls or rate skins when I post them. I don't believe I've ever been rude to any of you and I certainly won't start being rude just because I've been accused of it by someone who's every statement is an absurd personal vendetta arising from what he felt was a bad rating given to one of his submissions.

As I watch threads like this (I try to stay out of these generally) I feel like I put an enormous amount of time and effort into this site for nothing. It's only when your work is appreciated or you feel it makes a difference that volunteer effort is worth the time. What if all the admins suddenly decided they would leave? At this point I really think this site would cease to exist. How proud of your selves would you be at that? Two million people who visit here would have a handful of disgruntled members to thank for that. Disgruntled members whose accusations grew to biblicaly out of context and absurd proportions to hide the pettiness of the original complaint, "my piece wasn't rated high enough".

If you think I'm a rude person, please tell me so to my face. If you think this site is a money-grubing contemptuous place why are you here? The fact is, this site costs Stardock tons of money. hashonboats claims are not only totally wrong but he has no knowledge of anything truthful about this site, why it's here, or how it works. He only has anger that his piece was rated too low.

Do what you will, but try to think about the karma of lying, even if it's just emotionally stimulated It hurts everyone.

Gad, what a thread this is turning into.
Let me rephrase my earlier comment:
Frogboy - being Stardock, really can't have the luxury of losing his cool on a public post, as it may (or may not) have a negative impact on the company. Now, that being said, I will say it bluntly for those that can't or shouldn't...
This site is to promote STARDOCK products. It is not about the skinners. It's not about me, it's not about you. It's about what are STARDOCK products are capable of doing. Our submissions are a perk. The admins have the right to run and moderate this site as they see fit, to promote the product which they make money from.
The wallpaper section is a perk. PERIOD.
Even though most of my submissions are wallpapers, and I used to get upset at the moderation, I wouldn't be upset in the least if walls were not a part of this site, since it seems to take away from the intent of the sites original intent in the first place.
For the DA enthusiasts, I for one thing all of your works are outstanding and my HD is blessed with many of your works, but stop bashing the admins here for trying to promote their own products.
OK, so that being said, I brace my own self for a bashing...

Out of 24 categories we post here, only 9 of them are Stardock products.

The admins don't make any money from this site, we work for free.

This site is ALL about the skinners and the work they create.

If this site is to promote Stardock products then so is skinz.org, skinbase, custo.org, etc.

Skin sites are extremely expensive to run. Our advantage is having some philanthropic money from a skinning company to help, but the site still needs to make it's own money to survive, thus the memberships, t-shirts, CD's etc.

All skinning sites have a common purpose and exist in the same community. It's all about skinning and sharing our work with the public.

All skinning sites have rules and some form of restrictions on the members. We try to be open to ideas and have quite often made improvements that arose from intelligent discussion about how we do things. We listen to and encourage members to give feedback and constructive ideas.

Just do away with the wallpaper section so that you won't have an uprising of those members, who are "expressing" their discontent.

Okay, I'm wrong then.. my foot is tasty and I will just shut up and go on.

Phoon, I wasn't aiming my comments at you and I think your post shows how confused this issue gets. It's a perception some people have and I think it's better to discuss it than to let emotional rants carry it to some absurd level of conspiracy.

Expressing your discontent is fine. Wallpapers are a cool part of the site and should be here. Why let a few people ruin that for everyone else?

If your discontent is about ratings why should that get stretched into a bashing of the morals of the volunteers? Or the motivation of the site's owners? If anyone thinks their piece was rated too low they are welcome to ask why and dispute it. Doing so with a string of accusations and indictments about what cruel unfeeling elitist assholes we are is generally going to result in a different conversation, having nothing to do with the original complaint.

#133 by Citizen hashonboat - 7/27/2003 8:57:38 AM

There was another failed artist from Bavaria who was more articulate by far when it came to speeches targeting the least intelligent among a population. Can’t remember his name offhand but here is some of his work.



The content of propaganda is not science any more than the object represented in a poster is art. The art of the poster lies in the designer's ability to attract the attention of the crowd by form and color. A poster advertising an art exhibit must direct the attention of the public to the art being exhibited; the better it succeeds in this, the greater is the art of the poster itself. The poster should give the masses an idea of the significance of the exhibition; it should not be a substitute for the art on display. Anyone who wants to concern himself with the art itself must do more than study the poster; and it will not be enough for him just to saunter through the exhibition. We may expect him to examine and immerse himself in the individual works, and thus little by little form a fair opinion.
A similar situation prevails with what we today call propaganda.
The function of propaganda does not lie in the scientific training of the individual, but in calling the masses' attention to certain facts, processes, necessities, etc., whose significance is thus for the first time placed within their field of vision.
The whole art consists in doing this so skillfully that everyone will be convinced that the fact is real, the process necessary, the necessity correct, etc. But since propaganda is not and cannot be the necessity in itself, since its function, like the poster, consists in attracting the attention of the crowd, and not in educating those who are already educated or who are striving after education and knowledge, its effect for the most part must be aimed at the emotions and only to a very limited degree at the so-called intellect.
All propaganda must be popular and its intellectual level must be adjusted to the most limited intelligence among those it is addressed to. Consequently, the greater the mass it is intended to reach, the lower its purely intellectual level will have to be. But if, as in propaganda for sticking out a war, the aim is to influence a whole people, we must avoid excessive intellectual demands on our public, and too much caution cannot be exerted in this direction.
The more modest its intellectual ballast, the more exclusively it takes into consideration the emotions of the masses, the more effective it will be. And this is the best proof of the soundness or unsoundness of a propaganda campaign, and not success in pleasing a few scholars or young aesthetes.

Once again, my statement "If your discontent..." is not aimed at anyone in particular, just a general 'you' (anyone in other words).

Some history about this site might be helpful. This is purely from my memory so correct me if I'm wrong.

Skinz.org was the 'king' of skinning sites (they had a fierce and unrelenting moderator who rejected walls constantly btw) and it became apparent that skinz was going down in flames. There was a real concern that the remaining skin sites would be overwhelmed with new members or we would loose our community to a lot of seperate smaller groups. Deskmod had vanished also leaving only a few smaller sites and DA which at that time was experimenting with branching out into poetry, indy art and was building a huge new base for their site looked like the only option to absorb all the extra traffic.

Stardock had announced that they would build a site that would act as a portal to connect all the sites, it was never intended to be a large skinning site as much as a glue to hold the community together and bring more skinners into it. Skinz went down faster than expected so the urgency to get Stardock's site up and running became greater. They decided to bring the original programming and admin crew from skinz in to build a new site. That changed the goals and character of wincustomize to become more of a skin site with a limited number of skin categories (we've never had the hundreds of categories some other sites do because we didn't want to replace any other site, just bring more people through the gate to find this wonderful group endeavor).

There were unfortunate clashes of ego as the site was launched which saw it loose the skinz guys over control issues but the site launched months ahead of schedule to meet the demand from the demise of skinz.org. From that point on the site has evolved slowly to become what it is today. The original commitment, to feature a core group of the most popular skin categories and not the hundreds more that other sites take on is still here. It was intended to help the other sites by doing this, letting people who come here hang out, post their stuff, discover skinning or continue skinning but not to replace or compete directly with the resurrected deskmod.com, custo.org, DA, LOS, skinbase or any of the other places that had formed a more tightly integrated group. We were, and still are, a combination of a portal to bring users in to the skinning world through the public attention Stardock's products get, and a place for community spirit to thrive.

At least that's the way I saw it and that's why I'm still here. I've left a couple times after dealing with Stardock bashing and admin bashing (and internal disagreements as well) because I could no longer justify the time I spent here. I'm self(un)employed as a commercial artist and living 'hand to mouth' which requires all my effort be put towards making the mortgage payment.  However, the amount of time I devoted to this site was a joy to me so I came back and kept doing mostly behind the scenes stuff (avoiding the message board).

Most of you have no idea how much goes in to a site like this not only in terms of time but also giving of one's self. The admins here try so hard to be fair, to make a welcoming environment for everyone, that I find it hard to leave because I have so much respect for them all. It would be impossible for anyone to not loose their cool occaisionally with the stuff they get accused of. But overall, I think the crew here deserves some credit for getting this far and keeping the escalation of tempers as under control as it has been.

Like I've said before, nobody's perfect, but this site strives for values and qualities that represent an ideal. If we don't always get it that's understandable, but I'd like to think that the crew here has their hearts in the right place and that the support of this site from it's sponsor is a generous gift for all who come here. And I'd like to believe that if wincustomize closed for whatever reason, there would be a sense of loss just as the sense of loss over skinz.org brought this site into existence.

Don't kid yourselves folks.  Stardock doesn't need WinCustomize one bit. We know the stats. We know the costs. Whether people put their skins here or on deviantART or Deskmod or wherever makes no difference whatsoever to Stardock. 

This issue is about Wincustomize. Don't try to bring Stardock into it. As far as Stardock is concerned, it's a community site run by the community. Anyone who thinks Stardock pulls the strings around here is mistaken. The ones who run this site on a day to day basis are community volunteers. Volunteers who spend their valuable time contributing to the skinning community.

I've never understood why people think removing their themes or skins or wallpapers from WinCustomize harms Stardock. It does not. Not even in the slightest.  It certainly harms WinCustomize of course sicne there is less good content. But that decision is between you guys amongst yourselves. 

Many artists seem to forget that this is a two way relationship. They are not honoring us with their presence by submitting wallpapers or whatever to WinCustomize. In exchange for contributing their work to the site, they have a reliable place for their works to be.  This site is going on 3 years old and in that time not a single skin, theme, or icon has ever been lost due to a hardware crash, outage, database corruption, etc.

No other site puts their contributors in the spotlight like WinCustomize does. There is no "top wallpaper authors" list on other sites, for instance. There is no top skinners list on deviantART. deviantART is, in my opinion, the world's best art site. But WinCustomize is the world's best skin site. Wallpapers fall somewhere in between.

What aggravates me to no end is the double standard. Look, fellow artists, your'e not customers.  Someone said we're a service provider. Really? I wasn't aware that artists were paying us to maintain their work. I dont' recall payments for backing it up for them every week. Or to pay for the bandwidth to distribute it.

On sites like Download.com, it costs $150 now to get your file listed and they don't host it. If you want to host it, it's another $100 per month per file. That's the real world.  So let's cut the nonsense that we're a service provider and that artists are somehow customers of WinCustomize.com. It's a symbiotic relationship. Both parties get something out of their relationship.

If some artist feels we're doing a bad job, then by all means, they should find another site (deviantART, Deskmod, Skinbase are all 3 very good sites for instance) to submit their works to. But for crying out loud, don't make a drama out of it. 

I think the record speaks for itself. DEEDS, not words, are what matter in the real world. The reason why WinCustomize is the world's largest skin and theme site is because we do treat artists with respect. We value intellectual property and treat it with the dignity it deserves. We try to fairly and evenly promote the works of skin authors and themers both here and in WinCustomize magazine. We provide consistent, reliable availability to artists and their works and for users to access it. And we give complete control over that work to the artists.

The site itself is administered not by some corporation but by a growing group of community volunteers who are themselves artists. Jafo, Paxx, Treetog, Alexandrie, DavidK, Koasati, Mormegil, Boxxi, etc. are not just moderators, they are artists themselves who have contributed vasts amount of work, free of charge, to the community over a span of many years.

In short, let's try to keep things in perspective.

#123 by c242 - 7/27/2003 1:55:54 AM You will find out soon that DA can be a very rough place sometimes, too.

Been there long enough now to find it utterly stress and headache free. An awesome little supportive 'community'/cirlce that many of us have going. Which is wicked awesome. I treat people as I want to be treated, and have always gotten that in return. Any genre of art I care to choose from, treated like a human being rather than a nimwit. S'good enough for me.

#124 by Scribe Fuzzy Logic - 7/27/2003 2:16:11 AM Plus your work will be 'lost' amongst millions of other submissions, most of which will be crap.

And those that find my work amidst the crap are the ones that I thank early and often and respect and appreciate their support. And they keep coming back for more. And other's notice my name on 'their' page so they check out my stuff, and so on and so forth. It's amazing what can take place when people are treated with kindness, gratitude and respect.

#127 by Citizen I.R. Brainiac - 7/27/2003 6:54:53 AM Yes,please dont go Akasha.I enjoy seeing your work here and I cant get DA's site to load.The wall situation does need changing but we wont change it by leaving.No Rules has a very good idea for doing away with moderation,maybe we can convince them to consider it.Bad as I hate being rejected I dont want to see this site become another filled to the brim with every little scribble that someone wants to upload.I agree with you about Frogboys post tho,...that was pretty disheartening.If we stick around maybe we can change HIS mind on the subject.Stick around,..your way to talented to lose!

I.R. Thank you for such kind words. I really mean that. But for me personally staying or leaving, the leaving part has been actually decided for sometime now. I just kept hanging on to that last thread of hope that a miracle would happen around here. I've wanted to leave for a while, but at the advice of a friend and fellow artist who suggested I wait before I decide hastily, I did, and I returned back on line only to find the same crap still going on. Life is so precious and so short--I cant justly create stress and headache when I don't have to.

As for Brad, I cannot have a shred of dignity if I read what I did and remain here. That was the over the top thing for me. He said, quote, "Are we clear?" Indeed...we are very clear. There is no and I mean NO excuse for someone doing that, let alone from the founder. I"m sorry there just isn't. Change his mind? No thank you. It's not about walls, moderation or any of that anymore it's about behavior,tact,treatment and that I cannot stomach. Reality is, we've all either bought the subscription, and the product or some ofus have bought HIS product and created work and freely offered it to HIS site, where he charges a subscription fee for those who don't design to download. Well, I'm fed up with being made to feel as though I OWE this place for being blessed with the HONOR of having my work posted. Because bottome line is, if we did not buy his product, he'd lack the change in his pocket! If there were no skins and walls to download he couldn't charge for this subscription as there would be NOTHING to download, and rather than making people feel valuable we get treated like crap. NO THANK YOU!

If you walk into a restuarant you expect to be treated a certain way, as you are the paying customer! The same goes for a boutique or ANY RETAIL/SERVICE establishment. Because this is online, it is NOT exempt from that. We all at some point paid for SOMETHING here! And maybe we should 'pay' for a customer service/treatment seminar for certain people as well.

So, as Brad asked if we're clear...indeed we are. I hope the WC Gods become 'clear' too someday.

#126 by Jafo - 7/27/2003 3:17:48 AM Lady Akasha.....In reality, all submissions are appreciated, whether walls, complex skin suites, or simple tentative steps at one's first Beatnik skin.

Jafo I read your whole post, and thank you. You and Boxxi as I already noted before in MY experience have always been great. And I commend you for that. But you are not alone, the WC Gods there are several of them, sorry. In my time here I've seen two occassions where words displaying value of an artist have been genuinely displayed,first time was Boxxi and you in this thread, in the above noted quote. And I'm sure like myself others were appreciative when reading that. But you are one guy. Behavior of others over these months, DOES NOT fall into the same suit as you just displayed. But I thank you for it. And there are mods/admins here that have shown some disgusting behavior (not ONCE) that in the eyes of some, they can NEVER be viewed in a good light.
I appreciate your hard work that you give freely to this place, and again Boxxi who's always been kind. As for talking about it... I tried that once hon, sometime ago when I originally wanted to leave, I wrote an admin to to thank them for their time and tried to discuss the 'air' around here, and indeed they were kind to my problem at hand,replied to my situation but one the subject of the air around here came up.... no replies to the 'air' around here subject.

Lady Akasha : Then GO TO deviantART. Sheesh. You act like dA is somehow "the enemy". We like deviantART too. So go there. 

Like I've said before, nobody's perfect, but this site strives for values and qualities that represent an ideal.

While trawling through several magazines recently I came across a couple of pieces by one "Andy Hutchinson" on desktops and customising.
quote.."Without a doubt, the best place to get funky wallpapers is DeviantArt(www.deviantart.com/?tier=wallpaper).
There are over 30,000 wallpapers in the abstract section alone." unquote.
After extolling the joys of DeviantArt he moves to, and I quote,"customize.org(www.customize.org)is a safe bet.There's a much more vocal community here and while there are fewer wallpapers in the archive(a paltry 6,689)they are brutally rated by site contributors.
This certainly seperates the wheat from the chaff." unquote.
Further, quote,"They've been going through some tough times with server-load lately, but ThemeXP(www.themexp.org) still has some excellent wallpapers on offer. Deskmod(www.deskmod.com)also offers a nifty selection, as does Skinbase(www.skinbase.org).
One place to steer clear of is Wincustomise(www.wincustomize.com) - wallpapers here are moderated and yet the quality threshold is appallingly low. The library seems to be stuffed with endlessly bad Bryce renders." unquote.
In another issue he goes on to give Windowblinds a good kicking .... but leave that for another day.
I have no idea who this 'expert' is but it does indicate that some people do not like what they see here and more to the point, they go and say so in an internationally circulated magazine!
And I assure you, the quotes I have cited are verbatim!
So maybe the moderation here is not such a bad thing ........ and the people doing so are doing it for free.
Jafo will bust a gut over the 'endlessly bad Bryce renders'
Then again, it takes all kinds.

Too bad I didn't read the last thread before I clicked submit...or I would have been 'clear' before typing my post. Sorry.

You can't please all the people all the time, but some people you can never please...