Phase stabalizers are useful for more than just RA though. So if you make them take 20 tactical slots(they take 10 right now) then your making them less useful for their original purpose, which is moving from one plaent to another without using phase lanes. I think just keeping it to one gate per planet is the best solution, I also suggested it in the other RA post a week or so ago.

This leaves phase stabalizers to be used for their own sake, while leaving RA useful but less effective. You wouldn't be able to do like I described above where you load out 3 gates on both your planets and outproduce someone with 6+ planets.

I'm a primarily Vasari player and I hate playing with RA. It's simply just not fun to use stratigically, or to have to fight against.

Some people say, "nerf RA", but I say that RA needs to be done away with altogether. It simply doesn't jive with the Vasari's 'specialty'.

If you look in the diplomacy tab of the game, there are three ratings. Military, Empire, and Economy. Each race specializes in one of these three, Vasari military, Advent empire, and TEC economy.

In my opinion, the Vasari military super upgrade should be a fleet supportive technology. Well what exactly is a fleet?

A fleet is essentially a mobile tool you can use to directly destroy your opponent's fleets, planets, and structures. Clearly, the Vasari are the most mobile (with phase gates and upgrades), and this is probably the only way of upgrading tech without being super-unbalancing.


We're beyond RA is overpowered. We know.

So what then, should the Vasari have as their super thing?

I must be tired and out of my mind, and maybe a littel bit starving. I thought the OP was asking for a MOD where the ships were made of Nerf products. (Secondly) I want a Mod where the ships are made of plastic and shoot nerf arrows at each other. Get on it mod community! NOW

Interstellar travel between phase gates? (at the same speed as normal interstellar travel, of course). I'd trade RA for that any day.

Since mobility is one of their things, then maybe instantaneous travel by Vasari fleets between all colonies? Or maybe the tech would simply grant a free phase stablizer at all colonized worlds. That'd essentially be the same thing.

Ra should have a chance of summoning the evil enemies of the Vasari through the gate some time, that would make it far less useful

RA is obviously NOT imbalanced. If the devs really wanted to change it, I imagine it would take less than 10 minutes to change it (cooldown timer being increased would be the quickest band-aid).

That seems like a shaky argument, because the developers have not fixed it yet, it must be balanced?

By that same train of thought, wouldn't there be no remaining technical issues (like hosting problems) just because the developers have not yet fixed them, if they're not fixed yet, they must not be an issue?

There are other balance issues remaining with the game as well (LRMs, current economy heavily favoring TEC due to Credits being the most important resource, etc). I assume Returning Armada hasn't yet been fixed since the other issues are more pressing, TEC can win most games with it's economy and LRMs long before Returning Armada, so nerfing it before fixing TEC would just swing it even more in their favor.

well.. 1st post guys and gals (hi :CONGRAT:), been trolling for a while and having fun with this new game. prob bought a couple weeks ago and its been good times, so gg's if i have played with you.

i joined this game from dow, and my vote is this tech is free sluggas all over again.

i'm not trying to say at a 'theory craft' level or high play skill level this ability is broke, but at the low skill player level, RA (teched to mid/late game) is an 'i win' button. thats why people are screaming nerf, it lets crappy players (me) completely roll other noobs for no good reason.

it would certainly shut up a lot of the chatter if it wasn't as abusable.

Yes. Clearly hosting problems require the same amount of time to fix as does changing an ability's cooldown timer.

They're either:

Trying to think of a decent way to balance it out. Most solutions offered could be done in less than 10 minutes.
Or think it's balanced.

As to why the devs havent changed it yet thier could be any number of reasons including:

Not wanting to piss off a lot of thier player base.

Still debating a way to fix it that still leaves it powerful but not overly so.

They are still datamining to get a good sense of how or if it is too powerful.


All that said I am a vasari player and I have to say it is quite a bit op. There is no way I could mass a fleet of 60 enforcers and 40 transports by the 1 hour 10 minute mark even given a perfectly run economy without any kind of outside interference.

Given enough time in a game I can build a fleet better then what Ra provides but it would take probably 60-70% longer.

I think the best solution is to limit Ra ships to those you could have built anyway (including scouts) and not allow for ships to appear until supply is upgraded.

I play Vasari and am the first to admit that RA is overpowered in extremely large games with multiple systems etc. The RA player will win, always, if he/she knows what they're doing anyway.

Now, the question is whether it is unbalanced on reasonably sized maps.

It isn't. If a player teching to RA is "rushed", they will lose hands down. It is entirely impossible to have both a large enough fleet to defend yourself and also rush to dark fleet.

The question is not whether the dark fleet is unbeatable (it is...), but whether it is possible to stop a player from getting to dark fleet (ie: attacking him/her!)!!!

You defeat dark fleet by not allowing a player to get phase stabilizers!

Step 1) Scout (OMG they're getting RA!!)!!
Step 2) dude, ATTACK BEFORE THE ENFORCERS START COMMING!

It's not "unbalanced", but it does force other players to attack the RA player before they get to the RA.

It is only unbalanced on maps that don't offer sufficient opportunity to prevent an RA (like on large maps, or FFAs (which are inherently unbalanced if even for this reason alone) ).

italia559 did you even bother reading the thread at all? Seems to be a trend for people to see the topic then immediately hit the reply button. It's probably the reason posts like yours keep appearing.

quoting myself again (copy and pasted from earlier)...


Quoting myself from another thread on the exact same issue

Here's the problems with RA. An ability is overpowered if the only way to "counter" it is to prevent it from getting out. That's admitting that once it's out, it's unstoppable. To all you saying "just rush him", clearly have no idea what you're talking about or even what game balance is.


1 - instant transportation - you can't backdoor him because he can warp his fleet anywhere. You'll never do significant damage as he chases you down.

2 - a bigger army than you. I don't think I need to explain this. Because he has a bigger army than you, if you divide your army and attack two fronts, guess what? He can ALSO divide his army and defend two fronts, each with a superior fleet.

3 - much faster rebuild time. After he's cleaned out your army and you've taken out a huge chunk of his, he can immediately call in his fleet and be at max fleet cap again.

4 - much stronger economy. His economy, once he was RA,is solely dedicated to research, planet upgrades, and structures. Not only that, he can scuttle the free vessels and get even more money. Scuttling is also not reduced by fleet maintenance costs. On the other hand, a non RA player has to build a fleet in addition to everything else and they don't have instant money sources.

Finally, regarding your supposed counter to an RA player's rush, no experienced player will use 100% of his fleet if it looks like you might have some ships somewhere else. It's always wise to keep a few behind in case their opponent attempts a siege frigate rush or some back door strategy.

None of your suggestions address address any of the above points and they're not even strategically sound. The way to counter RA is not and should not ever be "preventing them from getting it." If it is, there's a huge serious freaking imbalance.

Finally, I'd also like to add that getting RA isn't necessarily a rush only tactic. If the player is getting fed cash and knows what they're doing, it's ridiculously hard to stop on medium maps. If they're NOT getting fed cash, they can still build a fleet large enough to ensure a stalemate then pour their resources into dark armada. I've done this several times and it felt like I was completely cheating every time.

Returning armada is cool. But compare that to the advent +max allegiance, cap ship auto level, and culture cannon. Advent dont get crap for econ techs and late game there just hurting unless they just brute forced their econ by having more planets. Returning armoada is also always overlooked for the travel factor and more the ship factor; the ability to travel in one jump between planets is frickin ridiculous and once u get DA up u got the speed bonus on those jumps as well. Vasari can easily defend themselves because of this and because they get pretty decent econ techs used right, reduction to buildigs and ships, pop growth, mineral and then a late tier cargo hold trade line really beefs up their econ, couple that with a functioning returning armada where your getting ships for free and it becomes an unstoppable tech and cap ship dump. Vasari also have subverters and skinatra carriers. IMHO the best cap in the game, repair cloud, micro-phasing aura, and replicate forces. Get 3,4,5 heck 6 of these things and now your fleet is building in its local area with replicate forces. Vasari is way op late game if there able to get this all functioning. TEC can dent them with the novalith or proper fleet engagements and their incredible raw econ and advent with repel and fully teched illums and the battlecruiser that has that lvl 6 ability to steal ships.


All in all vasari is doing fine its really a question of whether the other races need upgrading not neccesarily nerfs. Advent and tec should prob get phase gates at their last peace tree but vasari get RA and faster phase gate travel. And advent needs a pretty serious econ buff.

Returning armada is cool. But compare that to the advent +max allegiance, cap ship auto level, and culture cannon. Advent dont get crap for econ techs and late game there just hurting unless they just brute forced their econ by having more planets. Returning armoada is also always overlooked for the travel factor and more the ship factor; the ability to travel in one jump between planets is frickin ridiculous and once u get DA up u got the speed bonus on those jumps as well. Vasari can easily defend themselves because of this and because they get pretty decent econ techs used right, reduction to buildigs and ships, pop growth, mineral and then a late tier cargo hold trade line really beefs up their econ, couple that with a functioning returning armada where your getting ships for free and it becomes an unstoppable tech and cap ship dump. Vasari also have subverters and skinatra carriers. IMHO the best cap in the game, repair cloud, micro-phasing aura, and replicate forces. Get 3,4,5 heck 6 of these things and now your fleet is building in its local area with replicate forces. Vasari is way op late game if there able to get this all functioning. TEC can dent them with the novalith or proper fleet engagements and their incredible raw econ and advent with repel and fully teched illums and the battlecruiser that has that lvl 6 ability to steal ships.


All in all vasari is doing fine its really a question of whether the other races need upgrading not neccesarily nerfs. Advent and tec should prob get phase gates at their last peace tree but vasari get RA and faster phase gate travel. And advent needs a pretty serious econ buff.

Returning armada is cool. But compare that to the advent +max allegiance, cap ship auto level, and culture cannon. Advent dont get crap for econ techs and late game there just hurting unless they just brute forced their econ by having more planets. Returning armoada is also always overlooked for the travel factor and more the ship factor; the ability to travel in one jump between planets is frickin ridiculous and once u get DA up u got the speed bonus on those jumps as well. Vasari can easily defend themselves because of this and because they get pretty decent econ techs used right, reduction to buildigs and ships, pop growth, mineral and then a late tier cargo hold trade line really beefs up their econ, couple that with a functioning returning armada where your getting ships for free and it becomes an unstoppable tech and cap ship dump. Vasari also have subverters and skinatra carriers. IMHO the best cap in the game, repair cloud, micro-phasing aura, and replicate forces. Get 3,4,5 heck 6 of these things and now your fleet is building in its local area with replicate forces. Vasari is way op late game if there able to get this all functioning. TEC can dent them with the novalith or proper fleet engagements and their incredible raw econ and advent with repel and fully teched illums and the battlecruiser that has that lvl 6 ability to steal ships.


All in all vasari is doing fine its really a question of whether the other races need upgrading not neccesarily nerfs. Advent and tec should prob get phase gates at their last peace tree but vasari get RA and faster phase gate travel. And advent needs a pretty serious econ buff.

man sry bout that guys this forum does some whacky stuff sometimes, got an oops page went back and resubmitted and got three posts! Should also let authro delete their posts within a certain amount of time.

Jinx, it's really incredible how many times we've been lured into repeating ourselves...

To illustrate to myself how overpowered RA is, I started a locked 1vs9 Unfair AIs (random huge multisystem map, started in the same system as 4 of the AIs). I'm winning, easily. But I'm not having any fun, at all. It's really quite ridiculous.

Now I know AIs can't really be compared to humans, but this still says a lot about the brute force of Returning Armada.

Indeed, Vanechka.

Maybe I'll try explaining it differently why it's imbalanced...

In a normal game, assuming no player is rushing tech and they are consistently attacking each other, both players' technologies will improve as the game goes by. The difference is, the Vasari player's end game tech is an I-WIN button. The other races, do not have such a tech. Stopping them from getting the tech altogether is not a counter and it's not even always viable to do so.

People, if you beat someone using RA, don't pat yourself on the back too hard and come to the forum saying it's balanced. I have news for you, the person you beat either didn't know what they were doing or were trying a different strat they were unfamiliar with. If you're the one using RA and YOU'RE getting beat... well, if I say anything regarding this, it'll just sound like an ad hominem attack.

I don't get it. I've played with RA in single player 1vs . The comp. is too stupid and picks on me a little at a time and then runs when a little backup shows up. Gives me the time and money to get to RA which has a MASSSIVE cost between all the multi-level upgrades required, massive tactical slot increases required, and the cost of 7 civic research units.

I can't imagine how against a human (I haven't played online yet) you could do all that and not get crushed long before by a TEC who quickly has a nice economy going and multiple caps to your 1. He can just go planet by planet, take you out with little defense on your part (you are blowing your wad on all of the above) and destroy you civic centers, your phase gates etc. It has to be a real bad player that gives you enough time to keep an economy going without a strong defensive fleet while your purchase your way to RA.

Am I missing something?

Alright I've read the posts. I will admit that returning armada certainly is not "counterable". I've only lost with it once to a player who had 7 novalith cannons. In any event, I think that in games where you enemy is 5+ jumps away from you it is possible to win automatically with dark fleet (especially in non 1v1 scenarios). The phase stabilizers should be more expensive and should use up more tactical slots. That would make it much more difficult to automatically have the largest fleet.

I don't actually go for returning armada often because, well, it's not much fun. Honestly I think the novalith cannons and the phase stabalizers are both crazy unballanced but they do spice up the game... multi-system games are boring enough as it is.

mchinsky, you don't have to necessarily rush towards Returning Armada, as JinxOfSin was talking about.

Even if you just steadily progress at the same level as your opponent (who would be researching either Culture if they were Advent or Trade bonuses as TEC) as you do Phase Stabilizers and Returning Armada the result is ultimately slaughter. All a Vasari has to be is as good as their opponent and match them, and they can get to the threshold of Returning Armada and unleash the torrent.

Worse though is that they don't even have to be better than an opponent, all they have to be good at is stalling. Even a player doing Returning Armada on three worlds is very, very dangerous, if they can just stall long enough to get to that, then things become a mess. And there's always the nightmare scenario in Free for Alls when a Returning Armada player is very far away, so long as the player has peace with their neighbors they can get it, and good luck stopping it from across a system or a star jump away.

In team games this can be amplified, since if two players protect and feed another player credits and just stall the other team, once Returning Armada gets loose it's as good as over.

Returning Armada isn't just a pit that you have to sink tons of resources into just for it, Phase Gates are probably the best force multiplier in the game, they allow a Vasari player to be one jump away from anywhere in their empire (other big empires require multiple fleets to cover your bases), and are good to have just on their own in a heated game. The Phase Gates alone are arguably as useful as the other faction's late game civil techs, since they allow you to save enormous sums on fleet, but they also lead to brick wall of Returning Armada.

The economic advantages of the TEC aren't decisive, at least not until significant investments have been made. And then, you'll only be left with a small window of oppertunity before Returning Armada comes into play when facing a smart Vasari player. Sure, the Vasari faces a real challenge when playing with RA as the goal, but if he's smart, turtles and tries to phase himself in accordance with the challenges facing him, so will you. The only real example I can give you is from my 1vs9 game. I just took a look at the stats. At the 45 minute mark I had phase stabilizers at 2-3 planets, a Jarrasul Evacuator and 50 Assailants (not RA-related) and 2-3 repair platforms up at each of my three exposed planets. And that's after having constantly fought the four AIs in my system from the 10 minute mark. Now, it counts in my favor that there were several neutral metal extractors that I could snap up, but other than that, the layout of the map wasn't to my advantage. And in this was in my first real attempt at Vasari.

With regards to caps, their value and usefulness pricewise is relatively low compared with frigates until they gain levels, so consider them a long-term investment. And if you're facing a RA-focused Vasari, I'd go for the more short-term oriented frigates instead.

Vanechka, did that game have humans?

Did you lock the teams? I find in other than 1v1, the ai teams up long before you can make peace and kicks my arse. I'd never get anywhere near RA unless it was some multi-system map which I haven't tried one yet.

I'm tired, so I'm just going to quote what I said in reply #43:



The AIs were all set to random races and personalities. And to clarify, it wasn't a FFA but a literal 1vs9. The map is just a standard issue huge multisystem map with 5 stars (two systems contain five players each at the beginning). Besides the obvious differences between humans and AIs, the only thing that gave me a palpable advantage over a multiplayer game, was the fact that I could sell my large amounts of excessive metal for the full price. That, and RA.