Has anyone stopped to consider that maybe the top tier techs are very powerful by design?

Maybe they're intended to be game-ending, to avoid boring stalemated games that go on forever.

I remember these exact debates coming up with the top level research in Rise of Nations, and Brian Reynolds' answer was just that... at some point the game has to end. If it's gone on long enough that someone has teched up that high, it's time to end this game and start a new one!

Insurgency is pretty nasty too, and just as costly.

If they're meant to be game ending, then TEC and Advent's are grossly underpowered.

Insurgency can be countered by a couple hangers and repair bay on each world...it's costly proposition for a big empire, but also very counter-able due to how late it is. Insurgency is more of a pain and a distraction than a empire wrecker.

Advent's Mass Transcendence that auto-levels Capital Ships to Level 4 (as well as gives them a bonus to the experience they receive in battle) is nice, but how late in game it comes a Level 4 capital pops quite easily to the focus fire of Heavy Cruisers, it's easy to not even know if Advent has this ability or not.

If they're made to be game ending techs, they need serious improvements (Insurgency would need to add perhaps three or four times the ships per raid, and Mass Transcendence would need to bring the ships to at least Level 6 and do it much faster).

Giving massive buffs to these abilities to try to counter the obscene power of Returning Armada seems like a less practical solution than just reducing the effectiveness of Returning Armada (simply increasing the cool down by several fold and the tactical slots would probably be enough to make it useful, but not the "good game" machine it is now).

Yes, it's been discussed earlier (see the other RA thread). The arguments I made there are in essence the same as the ones made by TheRedMaw. Your mentioned example, Insurgency, can be contained relatively easily with culture and one or two small groups of heavy cruisers. I'd honestly rather have Returning Armada than all the tier 8 techs of TEC & Advent combined. You simply can't make the case that all the other tier 8 techs were intended as game enders based on their weakness compared to Returning Armada. While it's a valid game design to make overpowered meet overpowered (it's actually a general tendency as of late in RTS games), Sins just doesn't feel like that type of game, and it would require a major overhaul to make it work. I would rather have all the tier 8 techs be facets and sub-goals of an overall game strategy, than the ultimate goal.

Finally, I would just like to add (you probably already know this) that in case of a prolonged stalemate, you can team up with the enemy in order to share the win if in unlocked games. And sometimes, you just have to call it a draw. If, on the other hand, we were discussing the addition of a research victory (like GalCiv - just as expensive and time consuming), I might be interested.

I demand TEC Repair cruiser gets nerfed because it whoops my ass in games, I demand the Advent fighters and bombers get nerfed because I can't change tactics in attacking their planets, I demand TEC Carrier cap ship gets the embargo ability removed because it makes the game to hard for me and I think I have no way of countering it, I demand the TEC Novalith do only 1 damage a shot because I think it sucks and is uber haxxors, I demand that the cobalt frigates get nerfed because I don't know how to fight fire with fire, etc etc etc etc etc etc etc!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I see your point. Happy?

lol yes! TASTE THE SARCASM!!!!!

Good. Then you might consider posting something constructive next time? Please?

Good. Then you might consider posting something that is not whiny or complainy next time? Please?

Bubb9, what would you consider 'fighting fire with fire' VS RA? Have you discovered an Advent or TEC strategy that allows unit production without micro, gives tier 5 units with no military labs, or gives income free from fleet upkeep effects with no trade network and no infrastructure? Please show your work.

Only noobs complain about what you're talking about. The only grossly overpowered ability in this game right now is RA. That's what people want nerfed. The occasional peppering of posts regarding the other stuff you wrote are from people who just don't know how to handle it yet. You think the game is completely balanced? You think people shouldn't complain if a game is not balanced? Seriously, the "holier-than-thou because I don't complain" attitude is incredibly tiring and transparent. By your statements alone, I know you have no skill/understanding in this game.

Yep and it ends with free ships in your base.

Sorry but I don't answer questions that take what I say out of context.




OMGZZZZORZZZZZZ T3H T3C !5 like5 OPed because I don t noes h0w to conter them its l!ke OMGZORZZZZZ H4XXXXXXX.


Btw I know what I'm talking about you on the other hand should beware of being hypocritical.

We've provided reasons why it's imbalanced, we're not just whining. However, I do understand that reading comprehension is clearly a task too difficult for you so you continue to adhere to your pattern of spouting senseless drivel. Perhaps at some point in the future you'll realize what douche you are. But I'm guessing not, as retardation is incurable. You do at least have my sympathy. Poor child.

OMG U LIK TOT0LY DOSONT UNSTANZ SIRCASM OMGZORZ LOL !ts K.


If you assault the vasari player early on or better yet prevent him from getting enough worlds for 8 imperial labs you would know just how very very wrong you are...

There are so many things wrong with your assumption. Did you even read any of the previous posts or did you simply read the OP and immediately start your masturbation?

1 - A counter should never be "preventing them from getting it". That's admitting that it's a game ending technology. TEC and Advent have no such game ending technology. If they did, there would be balance. Currently, RA is extremely overpowered. Once it's obtained and the player gets enough labs, there's absolutely nothing you can do.

2 - they don't have to rush to it. They simply need to hold you off until they get it. Once they get it, GG.

3 - in multiplayer games, they can easily be fed money so that before you've even reached the second fleet upgrade, they have RA. My clan does this all the time.

4 - Preventing him from getting worlds is just an ignorant comment. If they're going military first and have an equally strong fleet as yours, contesting the planets works both ways. You can't simply say "don't let him get planets". You might as well just say "don't let him win at the game". It's not something you directly control.

5 - you can rush RA with 1 world and an asteroid. If you game the black market properly, you can do this very very quickly. That is, if I'm TEC rushing LRMs, it's possible for a player to rush RA and get it by the time I have about 60 LRMs. Obviously it's suicide to do this unless you're in an multiplayer game or you're seperated by a lot of jumps.




Ah, the old "you don't understand sarcasm" crutch that so many people use when their attempts at mockery fall flat on their face. It's alright, I'm sure your family still loves you despite your mental limitations.

Had you actually attempted to present real arguments or show some sign of an intellect worth respect I wouldn't have replied that way. However, if you act like an ass, you get treated like one.

1.INCORRECT Novalith Cannon can SEVERELY damage someone's economy, Advent same thing with the love cannon.

2.INCORRECT please see above statement.

3.Like that ever happens

4.Damn you lose all those games don't you?

5.Blackmarket not true and if your in that far and you don't even have a 4th or 5th planet your pretty much screwed no matter what happens.

OMGZORZZZZZ I CAN'T PLAYZZZZZZZZZZ I STUC WITH NO COLONEEEEZ SHIP WATSS DOS I DO?





LOL IT K U DOS NO STANZ.

I made a genuine request, I'm also genuine sorry if you mistook it for sarcasm, since it's probably partly why you've decided - and succeeded in doing so - to disolve the thread into something resembling a flame war. I do, however, find it ironic that by complaining about perceived whining. If you had taken a closer look at the relevant threads you would have seen that only very few of the replies can be classified as such. There's a big difference in airing frustrations with a language similar to that which you have employed, and airing frustrations while offering able arguments for one's case. None of the players that have aired their grievances towards Returning Armada - no matter how constructive - have done so out of hate towards the game, but rather love. I care, I want an already amazing game to become even better. I'm sure the reasons why you've posted here are similar, however missguided you might seem to me, so why don't we respect eachother as Sin fans?



Please, I ask of you - again genuinely - to read or reread this and the other relevant RA threads. You'll discover that what I find to be weak arguments guised in condescending language have already been discussed to great extent. You'll further discover, that there have been a lot more posters that, like you, jumped into the fray wildly accusing everybody that doesn't like RA the way it is of whining, than actual whining about the subject matter. There's no reason for anyone to do any of the two. Nor flame...

I don't even know what to say to these RA posts anymore.

I've pointed out a number of different means of combatting RA. I've listed two changes that would essentially remove any "OP" of the ability, and if you notice - they are not extreme changes, hence, the ability isn't extremely over powered. At most, it gives you an advantage against the average player who's mind is unable to grasp anything more than purely linear forms of attack.

So... I give up. I am however obligated to a couple replies here.

Vanechka:

Oh, and Vanechka, the compliment was sincere. The term "Pyrrhic victory" has it's origins in a man, one King Pyrrhus, and the results of a famous campaign of his. As such, it should be capitalized. Alot of people do not know the origins of the term, and would not do so.

Also, the problem with AI, is that once you have experience with it's behavior, you can predict it almost flawlessly with practice. After your first few decisive game victories against the AI, nine AI are less effective against you than just one Human being.

JinxOfSin:

1) Travel between Phase Gates is not instantaneous. It is 40% faster movement speed than regular phase lanes. Also, sometimes the distance you are traveling, although in a straight line, is still vast enough to require significant time to traverse. Timing is the key to outmanouevering them, just as it is with all other races.

2) Rarely is a Vasari fleet larger than an equally supplied fleet of another race. If it is, they undoubtedly exploited Phase Gates to go into negative supply. Also, you misunderstand exactly what I meant by outnumbering... My waves of attack thing, I must have typed poorly, only a couple people seem to have said things akin to it's notion.

3) Totally situational. There is a cooldown on Phase Stabilizers for RA. Also, the key is operating your economy at a peak level to insure that you can replace your losses extremely quickly... For a Vasari to have these mega-fleets, means that they are near the maximum fleet supply - which makes their economy extremely susceptible to disruption. They can only "meat-grinder" so often, and while they are pulling it together, you can disrupt them. The key to victory is timing.

4) Not quite... Exactly how much experiece playing Vasari do you have? Do you regularly RA "rush" (and I use the term "rush" lightly)? If you focus purely on RA tech, you are leaving yourself quite squishy, and less capable. The only time going RA first and then upgrading ever succeeds is against AI's you understand, or against noobs - unless you're in a team game, and being fed resources. I will admit, that situation is sort of shitty - you have to have a good team to beat it.

I have *never* said the only way to defeat RA is to prevent it. On the contrary, every single piece of advice, theorey, and encouragement I have given, involves combatting it. Nor have I suggested RA is only a rush-tactic. I do not find Vasari using RA and Kostura Cannons (which are notoriously weak) to be any more imbalanced than the other races using their high-end techs. It at the very most, needs just one or two slight tweaks to put it perfectly in line - an exploit fix, and limiting to one P.S. per world. As for scrapping the incoming ships for extra cash? *Shrug* It's really not that much, and scrapping ships... to make other ships... is mostly just a waste of time. Never waste time... knowledge and timing are the keys to victory in SoaSE.

TheRedMaw:

You are supposed to have to be better than your opponent to defeat them. That's the point of competition. If your opponent, given equal oppertunities for development, has failed to discover the means to defeating you, the fault is his, not the game's. You must be smarter than the computer  :NOTSURE: 

Anyway...

G'luck peeps, can't wait til 1.04 gives us something new to disagree about   

Who the hell are you?

What basis do you have for your statements?

You come off as arrogant, but I don't even know who you are.

Who have YOU beaten?

What clans have YOU played and defeated?

Who are your AWESOME training partners that verify your theories?

You just make general claims with little or no evidence. Sweeping statements are worthless. Yes scouting is important. Yes RA leaves your economy in shambles. These are points of contention. The problem is dealing with the waves of units. You gave some general guidelines, but no substance.

A casual reader might think you knew what the hell you were talking about, but any observant player would realize you're an idiot.

Thanks for listening!

Itharus, my point is that if two players are totally evenly matched in ability (an ideal situation, can lead to great tug-of-war, constantly teching matches) that Returning Armada allows one to get an "I Win" Button and prove to be the winner while the other has to put on a sad face and walk away, despite there being no substantive difference between them.

Something is wrong when the faction alone turns a game from two evenly matched players to one player slaughtering the other.

It's equally your opponent's fault for not defeating you as it is your fault for not defeating your opponent. But the player that chose Vasari gets the win for choosing them so long as they go for the Armada while TEC and Advent do not.

That smells in the overall balance issue, since TEC and Advent have no comparable technology, either they have to be given it by the developers so players can still compete and Returning Armada has to be toned down in order to be more on par with the others. Otherwise this substantial balance issue forces TEC to the extreme rushing tactics to try to stop it, and Advent gets to continue to sit in it's corner where it generally just isn't viable against very skilled players.

Most people I've encountered don't really dislike the ability because flat out, it could be a decent and balanced ability if implemented right and compliment a Vasari fleet, but right now it severely detracts from the game. It significantly dumbs down the game in multiplayer where tactics leave and it's just about blobbing hundreds of whatever ships come for free to you, and it makes the singleplayer (which most people play, not multiplayer) a joke. I do hope it's fixed, not for the sake of me or the faction I play (I play Advent, so both Vasari and TEC have significant advantages that won't be fixed just by this), but for the game itself.

Update. After spying Yarlen's post here I guess we can all be quiet and wait for next week...

I'm familar with the etymology being the term, but I was unsure as to whether or not a word/term derived from a name should be capitalized, this isn't the case in Danish. Thanks for clearing that up.



I already pointed out how certain things were to my advantage. My exploitation of neutral resources gave me a boost much larger than it would have against humans. I also said that playing against AIs can't be compared to playing against humans. My point was to comment on the amazing brute force that Returning Armada gives you access to. The steady stream of free and fast reinforcements allowed me to beat back forces 4-5 times the size of my own (without any micro - didn't bother) on one front while I expanded on the other. That was after I had reached full fleet supply.



Do you quote 40% due to Enhanced Tunneling? It certainly doesn't gel at all with my experience with Phase Stabilizers. Don't forget the downtime associated with moving from one edge of planets' gravity wells to another that the Phase Stabilizers circumvent. The longer the distance, the bigger the speed increase. The response time of a good Vasari player is far better than an equal TEC or Advent. The window of oppertunity is much, much smaller.



Again, that's very far from my own experience with the game, partly since Vasari is the sole race to receive a bonus to the fleet capacity thanks to Phasic Transmissions. And, don't forget that while the Vasari frigates individually use more supply points than the similar TEC or Advent, they are also that much better. We agree that one of the better ways to take on Returning Armada is to keep your upkeep at a level at which you can rapidly replace destroyed ships while targeting his stabilizers. It's far to easy for a fleet to collapse if the upkeep is 75%.



Yes, but you seem to dismiss the point that while your economy must supply a very large percentage of it's income to keep your military going, the Vasari's economy, although crippled by upkeep, gets off scot-free in this regard. This means that while his income might be much lower, it can be 100% applied to structures and technology. And yes, the key to victory is timing, but as already mentioned, the Vasari have an advantage over you in this aspect of the game as well.



If there's a standstill in the fighting and you're at or near your fleet capacity, scapping free ships that are going to be replaced by more free ships practically instantanously, can be a valuable way to increase your income. One thing to remember is that the Vasari has Improved Salvaging. But more, thanks to the way that the Vasari economy functons with RA and the fact that upkeep doesn't influence scuttling, the resources received from scuttling are more worth than their face value initially indicates. Not that the Vasari in the mentioned situation should always scuttle his units instead of choosing the offensive, but it's certainly another option and perk that RA offers.



I strongly disagree. Limiting the amount of Phase Stabilizers at each individual planet to just one instead of, as it stands now, two or three, effectively means that the potential rate at which the Vasari player can produce ships with RA at each planet is reduced with 50-66% It's a minor tweak, but it certainly doesn't have a minor effect. The Vasari player will have to expand to two- or threefold the planets if this change is implemented, to be able to rely on RA to the same degree as in 1.03. And I get the feeling that you agree with me that maneuver warfare is the best way to tackle RA. And that the bigger the empire, the more susceptible and exposed it is to that kind of opposition. It also helps that a single Phase Stabilizer can be targetet and destroyed much faster in a suprise attack than three, thereby adding at least another leg to enemy reinforcements' journey, which will increase their travel time significantly. This change will mean that Returning Armada will be turned into a powerful supplement to a Vasari player's strategy, and not the entire strategy itself.

BTW, sorry about quoting the beginning of your reply in the end of mine, but it just made more sense to put it there in the context of mine.

I'd be willing to bet that over 70 percent of the people whining in this thread have played less then 10 games and lost a majority of them as TEC.


btw Advent and TEC are OPed because Vasari Kastura Cannon has no where near the devestating power of a novalith or love cannon. Advent and TEC are OPed because the Advent get free cap ship upgrades at tech 8 and TEC gets insurgency. TEC is OPed because of their pervasive economy(seeing a pattern?). Advent are OPed because they get to many fighter bonuses and shield bonuses. TEC are OPed because they get mobile repair platforms. Advent is OPed because they have uber culture abilities(you have to be using less then 5% of your brain not to get it by now). TEC is OPed because the get damage and refire bonuses to gauss platforms. Advent is OPed because they don't need to build seperate structures for refining and trade. TEC is OPed because they got uber economy. Advent is OPed because.... etc etc etc.

This is using your guys' mentality on whats OPed and whats not.

Sorry for double post but this guy captures exactly why the super weapons and RA exist.

Bubb9, I hope noone replies with a mentality that even resembles yours, what's the use of replies like #54 and #74? Are you actively trying to incite flame wars?



Could you elaborate? Perhaps come up with some rebutals to my arguments against his? All you're doing to post statements with an attitude as if they are god given tautologies. Unless you post something with merit, I'll try (and hopefully be more succesful than in this case) to restrain myself from replying. I hope everyone else will follow suit.