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What Should be in the Next Balance Patch?

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What Should be in the Next Balance Patch?

from Sins Forums

The purpose of this thread is record all balance issues in one place for easy reference and then to suggest changes. Here I'll list some examples of possible solutions from my own ideas and also ideas that have been floating around on the forums. Ideas that are not my own (which is most of them) are marked with an asterisk.

Any input would be greatly appreciated.

 

EDIT: Non-faction specific game play changes.

Remove Pirate Base from Competitive maps, suggestion by ZombiesRus5.

Include option to remove periodic pirate raids but keep the possibility of sending them missions.

 

TEC

Kol Battleship:

Gauss Rail gun ability could benefit from a better secondary effect. For example, a nice buff could give this ability the effect of temporarily stopping passive regen on the target.

EDIT: Or make GRG's AM cost much lower so that it can be spammed; suggestion by Bilun.

Adaptive force field should be rebalanced as a passive ability*.

EDIT: Flak Burst: In addition to its current effects, make this also destroy 2/3/4/5 enemy SC squads; suggestion by Bilun.

 

TEC Loyalists

Hardened Defenses should be moved down to tier 2. EDIT: Additionally, give it the effect of making tactical structures disable-proof. Suggestion by JJBuck2.

EDIT: Militia Weapons and Militia Armour: Get base rank 0 so that they get some benefit before needing any research. Suggestion by Bilun.

EDIT: Grant Twin Fortresses or SB Compartmentalisation the additional effects of granting extra tactical slots and/or additional SB upgrade slots. Suggestion by JJBuck2.

Ankylon Titan:

Group Shield should have its cool down time greatly reduced, possibly by as much as half* and also make it give a shield restore buff to the affected allied ships*.

EDIT: Furious Defense could inflict 20/40/60/80 splash damage with 1500 range when active.* Either this or rebalance Furious Defense as a passive ability that also grants a buff to shield regen*.

Inspire and Impair should affect SC* or Titans (suggestion by HouseRalan).

 

 

Advent

Mass Disorientation could effect SC.* I quite liked this idea when I first saw it although I am skeptical as to its necessity. EDIT: Instead, this should simply be non-interrupt able; suggestion by Seleucia.

Allure of the Unity should be tier 2.* It gives only a 5%/10% allegiance boost to planets and yet is tier 8. Currently not worth it. Should also be just 1 level; suggestion by Seleucia.

EDIT: Final Judgement should target enemy cap ships and Titans; suggestion by Seleucia.

Revelation Battlecruiser:

EDIT: The Guidance ability on the Revelation coordinates the assault on target enemy The revelation grants all nearby allies +5/10/15/20% accuracy and the targeted enemy takes 8/12/16/20% extra damage for  for 25 seconds.

Cooldown: 30 seconds

Am cost: 60

 

Advent Loyalists

EDIT:

Base value of damage in culture bonus increased to 5%. Suggestion by Bilun.

EDIT: Planet for a Planet: Should Last 750 seconds. Suggestion by Bilun. Possibly this should also activate upon scuttling of a colony so that it is less situational. Suggestion by ZombiesRus5.

Fury of the Unity: Moved to Hostility Tree or greatly dropped in tier (suggested by ZombiesRus5)

Cowards Submission: Increase conversion chance e.g to 10%. Suggestion by Bilun.

Global Unity should be moved down to tier 3. Deemed unnecessary by GoaFan.

Assimilated Populace should grant its effect upon use of Repossession*. Drop this tech down to tier 2*.  It is ridiculous that a faction whose theme is synergy has upgrades that are designed to not synergise. It would be as if the Eradica's Purification ability didn't activate the buff granted by Strength of the Fallen.

 

Coronata:

Subjugating Assault: This should grant the same amount of exp as when a target is destroyed*.

Suppression Aura should effect SC or possibly corvettes instead but this would probably require a stat nerf so that the debuff that it grants isn't so large*. A passive 40% damage nerf and ~60% speed nerf to enemy bombers might be excessive.

Repossession should reduce the price of planetary upgrades by 33%/66% instead of 0%/33% as it is now.

 

 

Advent Rebels

 

Cleanse and Renew: Although the tech description for this upgrade is fairly vague, it doesn't sound worth getting. It seems as though it gives allied ships bonus AM when you destroy an enemy colony. But by the time an enemy colony is destroyed, the enemy fleet has typically been beaten so the extra AM isn't really a benefit. It would be much better if this tech just granted a large and long lasting AM regen boost to allied ships at an enemy planet when said planet takes damage.

Mass Communion: As pointed out in other thread, this tech just doesn't fit with the AR theme and is pretty much worthless as well. If it had no research prerequisites than it would actually save costs on media hub construction.

 

Vasari

Gravity Warhead: Change this so that it cannot target Titans, thanks Seleucia.

Bombers: I think every one agrees that their DPS per supply needs to be 30% lower in comparison to the other factions bombers*. Furthermore, it is their damage per shot that needs to be reduced in order to lower their DPS. Merely lowering their RoF won't help since they would still reach critical mass too easily and one-shot kill important ships.

EDIT: The defensive turret's Disruptive Nanites upgrade should not disable passive regen on Titans for 5 minutes (thanks Zombie for looking that up)*. That is just excessive. A 30 second debuff is enough.

Phasic Trap needs reduced range, reduced duration and increased cool-down time. Probably unnecessary.

 

Vasari Loyalists:

Vorastra:

Desperation: This shouldn't inflict splash damage on corvettes*. After initial skepticism, it became obvious that this needs to be nerfed.

The Maw: (EDIT) Make this ability interrupt able.

 

Vasari Rebels:

 Star Base Mobilisation: (EDIT) Make Orkies only capable of jumping between planets that have phase nodes*.

 

106,303 views 129 replies
Reply #76 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 74
Really? TEC Loyalists get a 30% weapons and 4 armor buff and just for being in an owned gravity well. I think Fury of the Unity could have been the Tier 2 tech after the first two culture upgrades considering it's only a 10% buff which would help early game but hardly be game changing mid or late game. T8 should be game changing which this is clearly not.
End of ZombiesRus5's quote

Fury of the Unity grants a 20% damage buff and Militia Weapons/Armour is fairly high up. Still, good point.

Quoting HouseRalan, reply 75
AbilityTargetAntimatterTanks
AbilityTargetBackupGenerators
AbilityTargetBridge
AbilityTargetComputerCore
AbilityTargetEngines
AbilityTargetHangarBays
AbilityTargetShieldGenerators
AbilityTargetWeapons
End of HouseRalan's quote

Cool. An additional corvette ability for TL would hardly be game-changing but it would be nice to have.

 EDIT: Existing corvette abilities are already similar to most of these, but some are unique. TargetHangarBays in particular could be good if it could debuff any unit or structure that could carry SC.

Quoting Bilun, reply 76
Fast bombardment would make it easy for the Advent Loyals to force a fight while the buff is up(if the enemy doesn't come to defend in numbers they start losing planets).
End of Bilun's quote

This fits well especially since Advent are a bit lacking in the siege department.

Quoting Bilun, reply 76
if carriers under the effect of the buff shared the damage bonus with their strikecraft
End of Bilun's quote

It seems like an oversight that this isn't the case. 

Quoting Bilun, reply 76
I'd still like to see the old base rank 0 value of 5% brought back though- Advent loyals should get some inherent combat boosts in-culture.   perhaps a slight increase from 0->20% to 5->25%
End of Bilun's quote

Absolutely.

Quoting Bilun, reply 76
Personally though I'd just prefer a larger conversion chance- nothing will make an opponent think twice about fleeing more then greater attrition.
End of Bilun's quote

That sounds like it would be an easier change to make. I'd be happy with that, say a 7.5% or maybe 10% conversion chance.

Quoting Bilun, reply 76
Ancient ret is T6 hostility, Fury T8 harmony, and all their low tier techs are trash.
End of Bilun's quote

On the subject of Ancient Retribution, I've lately been toying with the idea of removing the shield mitigation buff or the range buff and replacing it with a phase missile block buff.

Reply #77 from Sins Forums Top


TEC

Kol Battleship:

Gauss Rail gun ability could benefit from a better secondary effect. For example, a nice buff could give this ability the effect of temporarily stopping passive regen on the target.     Make affect only hull and reduce damage by 25%.

EDIT: Or make GRG's AM cost much lower so that it can be spammed; suggestion by Bilun.

Adaptive force field should be rebalanced as a passive ability*.  AI will invest in passives (with research to improve) and screw up the ability load.  higher initial resistance and added shield regen.

EDIT: Flak Burst: In addition to its current effects, make this also destroy 2/3/4/5 enemy SC squads; suggestion by Bilun.

 

TEC Loyalists

Hardened Defenses should be moved down to tier 2.

EDIT: Militia Weapons and Militia Armour: Get base rank 0 so that they get some benefit before needing any research.

Ankylon Titan:

Group Shield should have its cool down time greatly reduced, possibly by as much as half*.

Furious Defense could inflict 20/40/60/80 splash damage with 1500 range when active.*

Inspire and Impair should effect SC.*  Ability needs to affect friendly and enemy TITANS!!!!!

End of quote

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Reply #78 from Sins Forums Top

Making GRG only effect hull is reasonable but keeping AFF as an active ability means that the Kol's issues with AM efficiency remain.

Giving Militia Weapons and Armour a tier 0 affect would give the TL something unique at the start of the game.

Group Shield can't stay online long enough often enough to make a real difference.

I'm starting to prefer a different approach to Furious Defense. I think instead it might be a good change if it was made passive as suggested earlier on this thread. Still, I think the Ankylon should level up faster and to do that it needs more firepower. 

SC are one of the most important sources of damage. Since Inspire and Impair affects weapon cool down not actual damage, I guess it could work better if it affected Titans instead. Also, if it gave a weapon cool down buff to itself, then that would be valuable.

Reply #79 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting GoaFan77, reply 68


That said, again I think cost/benefit global unity is in a good place. They certainly don't need any research removed, perhaps the tier 2 extra culture tech could give another bonus, like extra antimatter or shield regeneration bonus in culture.
End of GoaFan77's quote

Here's an idea: your culture spreads very rapidly to newly acquired planets.

I'm obviously of the mind that culture is the key to the AL.

As for Fury of the Unity, I could bring up an idea I had back in Diplomacy... Advert are about synergy in their units however a single buff is only going to, favor certain units. Instead have lots of little affects that make all units just better at what the already do. For example, lums get a small DoT, gaurdians get a shield regeneration buff Flak get a range boost, Dominas get to... work. The values would be small but overall everything is working just a , bit better.

Btw, don't take my ideas as ''I've done the homework and this is the best possible idea in my opinion". Their just ideas and I don't care if they aren't favored.

Reply #80 from Sins Forums Top

A similar idea to that has been proposed for the Revelation's Guidance ability. I think that the concept could be worth doing but I'd rather see it attached to Confluence of the Unity or something instead.

Reply #81 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 76
Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 74
Really? TEC Loyalists get a 30% weapons and 4 armor buff and just for being in an owned gravity well. I think Fury of the Unity could have been the Tier 2 tech after the first two culture upgrades considering it's only a 10% buff which would help early game but hardly be game changing mid or late game. T8 should be game changing which this is clearly not.
Fury of the Unity grants a 20% damage buff and Militia Weapons/Armour is fairly high up. Still, good point.
End of JuleTron's quote

Ya, thanks. I for some reason had their other tech on my mind when I was writing this. 

The fact still stands AL has to build 14 labs to get it's 30% damage bonus from rebellion, while TL only has to build 5 military labs. I'm not complaining about the damage bonus itself which is good, just when it's available.

In fact a lot of the AL techs are in the wrong tier IMO from when they should be available when you account not just for cost but the TIME needed to acquire them.

Mine Control (WTF and Tier 2) - No idea why this was even deemed cool. Can't think of a way to make it cool either.

Ancient Retribution (Tier 6) - It's a good tech even at tier 6, not something you'd rush for but will get when you can. I'd rather see it tier 5 personally though

Cowards Submission (Tier 5) - This could be interesting if it calculated at phase jump start, canceled phase jump and converted the unit. I'd also rather punish a player for trying to bypass or fleeing a system by making the chance to convert even higher. At a tier 5 cost a measly 5% chance to convert that you'll never see in the current implementation you are basically giving them 5% of their fleet as free experience. Fix the implementation and up it to 15 or 20% or fix the implementation and drop the tier to get the research cost more inline with the effect.

Global Unity (Tier 5) - Allegiance Buff makes this tech solid at this tier. I don't see any changes needed.

Planet for Planet (Tier 4) - For whatever reason I haven't researched this tech when playing online. It's a good technology with a 25% damage buff and 10% range buff. Problem is it requires you to lose a planet to activate and scuttle won't cut it either. The way fights go in Sins if your winning you won't see this tech activate. If your losing the 25% buff probably won't help much. If you could scuttle a planet to get the same affect I would no doubt research but I'm not sure that would fit with the AL lore and all. I'd like to see it Tier 3 personally just because of the situational use.

Confluence of the Unity (Tier 2) - Your planets are saturated in culture thanks to Global Unity so maybe not so great. It does afford some early game culture push but with the culture system in sins it's questionable how much affect this really has. I'd rather this have a secondary affect. 

Acclimatization of Will (Tier 3) - I like this tech and think it's fine at tier 3.

Fury of the Unity (Tier 8) - It's just way to high in the tech tree to be useful. Basically if you get a Deliverance engine it's worth researching this tech. It's not however equivalent to STTC, mobilization, dual starbases, TAR or Wail. AL doesn't get furious until late game it seems. Honestly I would have rather seen Fury of the Unity in place of Confluence of the Unity at Tier 2, but I'm not sure what you would do with the confluence. Attacking an AL player in it's own culture should be risky, much like attacking a TL player in owned gravity wells. I think AL should get this earlier than TL. Dropping Fury of the Unity to Tier 4 with no pre-reqs like now would work.

Assimilated Populace (Tier 4) - Love the rewrite of this tech, hate it's tier placement. This needs to be available when you are expanding in the early game. PLEASE move it to tier 2.

 

Coronata -

Subjugating Assault: This should grant the same amount of exp as when a target is destroyed*.
End of quote

I wasn't sure if I agree'd at the time, but ya this is basically killing the unit and you should get full experience. Not to mention you get a damaged unit after the conversion that then enemy can destroy for full experience!

Suppression Aura should effect SC or possibly corvettes instead but this would probably require a stat nerf so that the debuff that it grants isn't so large*. A passive 40% damage nerf and ~60% speed nerf to enemy bombers might be excessive.
End of quote

I don't agree with this. You should micro Halcyon's.

Repossession should reduce the price of planetary upgrades by 33%/66% instead of 0%/33% as it is now.
End of quote

At a minimum, yes. It should also activate Assimilated Populace if researched (which is possible without an Engine change using the finishCondition ResearchNotMet).

Reply #82 from Sins Forums Top

Personally...

1. Mine Control - I love this ability, I think its great where it stands honestly short of running your cap ship or titan through a field of mines its the only viable way of taking out a mine field quickly and effectively

2. I think Ancient Retribution and Fury of the Unity need to be placed earlier in the tree to give the AL a easier time with expanding and fleet fights early game.

3. I like the idea of cowards sub to have a higher percentage but honestly with it taking up fleet supply and being so random i don't ever get the ability. I hate the idea of getting the wrong ship and having to scuttle for a small amounts of money doesn't really make a difference. 

4. Global Unity, Acclimatization of Will, Confluence of the Unity and Assimilated populace, I agree need to be moved down they're great culture techs and make for good movement early game and give the AL some diversity but they also require money and time to build Temples and need to be backed up with some fleet work, having them earlier and then backing them up with the idea from point 2 would be a unique idea and maybe start making the AL a viable force early game. I also think that Global Unity should be in Confluences' place simply because it fits the idea of the AL better, maybe changing so that the allegiance buff so with confluence and the planet culture buff you get earlier.

5. As far as the Coronata is concerned i think it needs to be looked at...

     Subjugating Assault - It just seems like this doesn't MC enough and make a big enough of a difference to make it a viable skill to use over the damage upgrades you can get to help.

     Suppression Aura - I love this skill and its great, but having not effect SC is tough. Even Micro'ing 6 Halcyons trying to deal with close to 200 SC is a little tedious. It honestly gives the micro'ing advantage to the other fleet since they don't have to deal with it the same way

     Unity Mass - This skill has been fantastic since the buff, but I'd like to see it take a more AoE, even a minor one, to keep up with the idea that titans are supposed to be fleet killers

     Repossession = I have only one problem with this skill and its that it doesn't really do anything, I mean yes you get a planet but since you don't get a builder right off and don't get any of the structure, or upgrades, or population, there really isn't any reason to do this over bombing the planet first. The thing i like most of that you can cap inside culture which is really useful for sending this titan behind enemy lines and take planets for culture bombs. I'd like to see it actually benefit from your researches or at least take some of the buildings or upgrades.

Reply #83 from Stardock Forums Top

I think a great improvement to the kol would be to...

 

#1  make the adaptive forcefield free

#2 change the field so that the cooldown is 120 seconds and it lasts for 30

#3 make the field reduce damage by 25/35/45% and stop 40/55/65% of phase missles.

This would make the kol far more effective, since that would make it an effective titan killer (which are currently in rather short supply outside of carriers). In addition, that would really help the loyalist TEC, since their titan isn't nearly as effective as the others when killing titans.

 

 

and make grg cost 40 antimatter...

Reply #84 from Stardock Forums Top

oh! also (if possible), make mines that have been deployed able to move...   HEAR ME OUT!!

 

make them have a movement speed, say, 5% of a normal ship.

They cannot detonate when moving  (kind of like that moveable starbase in the maelstrom mod, which can't fire when moving)

Reply #85 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 82
PLEASE move it to tier 2.

It should also activate Assimilated Populace if researched

End of ZombiesRus5's quote

I've got Assimilated Populace and Repossession covered already. Suggested changes already noted.

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 82
The fact still stands AL has to build 14 labs to get it's 30% damage bonus from rebellion, while TL only has to build 5 military labs. I'm not complaining about the damage bonus itself which is good, just when it's available.
End of ZombiesRus5's quote

If Fury was a Hostility tech, then that would be solved IMO.

Quoting ZombiesRus5, reply 82
Planet for Planet (Tier 4) - For whatever reason I haven't researched this tech when playing online. It's a good technology with a 25% damage buff and 10% range buff. Problem is it requires you to lose a planet to activate and scuttle won't cut it either.
End of ZombiesRus5's quote

Oh really? Thanks, I didn't know that the damage buff was that big. Its a shame that some Advent techs do not have their stats on the infocard. Losing a planet is clearly not worth that buff but losing an asteroid or especially a dead asteroid could be worth it.

Making it activate upon using scuttle is a really good idea because it allows the player to activate the buff whenever they choose. For example, in preparation for a crucial battle, an AL player can scuttle some asteroid to give them an edge. I believe that the buff does not effect any new ships that are built after the buff activates but I'm not sure on this.

EDIT: This would make Planet for a Planet easily abused by colonising a planet and then scuttling again over and over.

Quoting Barebalo, reply 83
Suppression Aura - I love this skill and its great, but having not effect SC is tough. Even Micro'ing 6 Halcyons trying to deal with close to 200 SC is a little tedious.
End of Barebalo's quote

The fragility of the Halcyon doesn't help either. Still, no faction can easily handle that many SC, although Vasari with Phasic Traps and multiple Kortuls have the easiest time.

Quoting Dunmeri, reply 84
make grg cost 40 antimatter
End of Dunmeri's quote

Sounds right, possibly a bit lower.

Reply #86 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 86

If Fury was a Hostility tech, then that would be solved IMO.
End of JuleTron's quote

How so? You still need a heavy investment in culture to make fury happen where it will count.

Reply #87 from Sins Forums Top

I'm guessing we won't even be seeing a future update for this game anymore... 8C

Reply #88 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Teun-A-Roonius, reply 88
I'm guessing we won't even be seeing a future update for this game anymore...
End of Teun-A-Roonius's quote

Um why?

Reply #89 from Sins Forums Top

I would accept the fact they are not paying attention to this game anymore IF they would be making SINS 2.. but they are not (yet?) and still so many issues are unsolved (many rooting from the beginning of this game......)

Reply #90 from Sins Forums Top

Oh and one more thing, there are two Vasari Loyalist parts in the original post :D the second should be Vasari Rebel.

Reply #91 from Sins Forums Top

Just another bug, the Unity Mass beam dose not show if the target is destroyed by it. The ring will light up but nothing else happens after that.

Reply #92 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting lordwolfo1, reply 92
Just another bug, the Unity Mass beam dose not show if the target is destroyed by it. The ring will light up but nothing else happens after that.
End of lordwolfo1's quote

It's not technically a bug, Basically it's applying the damage before it fires the beam at the target. If the target is dead there's nothing to fire the beam at so the effect short circuits.

After looking at the ability they could probably reverse the timings and have the beam fire first then apply the damage a bit later, problem is still probably syncing them up to look good.

Reply #93 from Sins Forums Top

well, if there are no more stardock patches coming out, then there could be a "League Patch" and build the community into it, give regional warfare, boundary shifts, etc... in short the story that was left out.

Reply #94 from Sins Forums Top

I have a feeling there will be at least one more patch....you know, the one where Advent come out as OP...

Reply #95 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Seleuceia, reply 95
I have a feeling there will be at least one more patch....you know, the one where Advent come out as OP...
End of Seleuceia's quote

Nah, Advent already had their turn. The TEC will become the new totally broken faction when Novaliths instant kill the planets and their AoE and GRG does AoE damage.

Reply #96 from Sins Forums Top

TEC were broken in the Beta 1...they had their chance....

Reply #97 from Sins Forums Top

I still cant find where they say they are done patching/fixing this game. I can only find things where they said that they would but nowhere where they said that they were done patching it.

Reply #98 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Ryat, reply 98
I still cant find where they say they are done patching/fixing this game. I can only find things where they said that they would but nowhere where they said that they were done patching it.
End of Ryat's quote

Teun said he was guessing, they did not say that anywhere.

Reply #99 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting SithLordAJ, reply 87
How so? You still need a heavy investment in culture to make fury happen where it will count.
End of SithLordAJ's quote

I meant that moving Fury to the Hostility tree will solve the issue of AL needing too many labs to get their damage buffs.

Quoting Turchany, reply 91
How so? You still need a heavy investment in culture to make fury happen where it will count.
End of Turchany's quote

How did I not notice . . . .

Thanks.

Quoting Turchany, reply 91
TEC were broken in the Beta 1...they had their chance....
End of Turchany's quote

If each faction has already had its chance at being OP, could this possibly mean . . . .

 . . . equally balanced factions in the next patch? 

Reply #100 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting JuleTron, reply 100

...

If each faction has already had its chance at being OP, could this possibly mean . . . .

 . . . equally balanced factions in the next patch? 
End of JuleTron's quote

 

Your missing the joke- Beta 1 only had the TEC in it.