Only the Quad core 2.5 with a 7800 (closest in graphics performance to my 2 7600GTs) got anywhere near my framerates with UT2004. The spec of that machine pushes the price to four times the cost of my pc.

You may like your Mac, but they are just not value for money.

Only the Quad core 2.5 with a 7800 (closest in graphics performance to my 2 7600GTs) got anywhere near my framerates with UT2004.

I'm curious, how do you know this? Do you have a mate with a quad or... you visited a apple store...

Your x2 4400+ is 2.2 w/ 1mbL2.

The Quad is 2 dual-core 2.5, extra two cores over yours. Not a fair comparison is it? as the next model down would be on par Dual-core 2.3 w/ 1mbL2 per core.

You may like your Mac, but they are just not value for money.

The same happens with PC's. Look at games, soon as a big title is out your system is at half performance and the same again for the next future title. MS and game developers always seem to push the software to make you upgrade your hardware again and again, thats if you want to play the latest titles with no slow down.

It's not the first, soon as somebody upgrades their pc or gets a new one its outdated soon as its out the box.

I guess it really depends on what anybody does with their machine to make it value for money. As most people know in this game you can't keep up in this market without paying through the nose.

the quad should be faster (i mean 4 cores....)

4 cores that are crap.

Meowy, i came to WC just to not get my mac book pro depressed with the LUNA theme, as i cant handle excel for mac, and its a program i use often at work, its the same as the one in pc, except all versions use de same formulas as the one in english for pc, and i only know how to use them in spanish LOL, and as i said, windows is a nice OS, and as i differ with all here, i accept that its good, sometimes unstable but good, what i really find interesting is how pc "likers" repell osX soo baad, even though is a great system as well...wonder why,maybe not the popular opinion is the correct one! Oh, and i mind saying again, well the mac ads are terribly rude, except from the hi im a pc, and im a pc too, that one has spark, dont blame apple, microsoft did in its time waaay more dirty things, that's how the market works, just search for QDOS, and see how dirty microsoft is.

Most of this discussion is about the hardware.. OK. Forgive me if this has already been stated, but there is a lot of hardware out there. A lot of hardware is crap. Some of the crap can also be plucked into a Mac as well as the PC.
On the software side, Windows has to be able to run on all this hardware that is out there. Mac OS only has to run on what Apple puts in their machines. Most likely if you pluck your OS X install DVD into your Dell or whatever you have, the install won't go so well and OS X will not boot. As we have found out with Windows.. hey! It can run on PC and Mac, without hacking the code!... because of its design to work on everything (except ENIAC, UNIVAC, etc). That's part of why it isnt as stable as Mac OS. But, OS X can crash too, it's happened to me.

Windows: Reliable, runs on anything you feed it.
Mac OS: Very reliable, only runs on specific configurations.

The Quad is 2 dual-core 2.5, extra two cores over yours. Not a fair comparison is it? as the next model down would be on par Dual-core 2.3 w/ 1mbL2 per core

Exactly my point. The performance would be a fraction of my pc's at double the cost. The higher spec machine was chosen as a second comparison (see earlier post) because it came closest to my UT2004 framerates.

And no, I don't have any Mac buddies - the test results are all over the place, you just have to look

Surely the whole point of this discussion is that before Mac went Intel inside you could spend twice as much on a mac and be happy that you had a unique (and as Steve Jobs always said before "better")architecture (IBM G5 people! Motorola G4 is like P3 speed)
However now that Steve and boys are shouting about how much better Intel's chips are (completely the opposite of what they were saying 12 months ago) you can now say HEY! that £1800 macbookpro has the same spec as my £800 Acer! And guess what the Acer runs OSX86 just as fast

Well the g5 processor is not near to be crap, come on!!! i dont think u people know this, but the g5 processor is STILL better than the intel chip, only IBM doesnt put any interest on it whatsoever, plus, i dont think u have ever seen a powermac g5, but it uses a very high tech cooling system because the processor gets extremely hot,that was the bad point about it and made steve jobs quit from powerpc, and well, i dont know where u got that bout braggin that intel is better than g5, they dont even compare it! they say intel is 5x faster than the g4, which is outdated, steve DID say they took intel over amd or ibm cus they were having shipment and production problems with ibm, with the quad only in the line (and staying there for a long time, that's why the apps will come in universal binary) they have a really tough time getting the production line in time for apple.
Oh, can someone send me that 800 acer that has same specs as the MBP, i would surely like to see it.
BTW the quad is PPC, it doesnt work at the same framerates as an intel processor, its comparing a 300 horsepower bmw to a 300 horsepower truck, that's ur comparison, while it has speed, maybe torque is needed sometimes, and i guess ur pc is not a 2 dualcore processors. The quad g5 would be a server type processor for a pc, u can compare it with a server maybe?


OH, 12 moths ago they were giving developers p4 based macs in powermac casings for develpment of new software on OSX86, and OSX86 is able to run on a pc, but microsoft doesnt mind getting EFI emulators, beign able to format on the apple standard disk format, and get the drivers, just as apple did with bootcamp, microsoft is plain selfish, cus know most ppl will install osX on there pc,some ppl choose pc over mac cus of price, and beign able to install it on a cheaper pc would be a hit for them, bootcamp...welll most of the ppl who have it (including me) is cus its needed for their jobs, if not, i would not mind.

OH & btw, its good to do some reasearch first on what the computer offers u, look at the link

http://www.apple.com/powermac/dualcore.html

I hope ur pc will manage 4tb of ram in the near future NOT!

Vista will support EFI.

I hope ur pc will manage 4tb of ram in the near future NOT!

Don't worry we will.

well show me a pc which can handle de 4tb ram right now, plus as far as i know, vista is still bios! QUOTE Windows XP, and even the upcoming Vista, are stuck in the 1980s with old-fashioned BIOS. Sorry to dissapoint u, maybe happened the same with WINFS? or with the 2000,0000,0000 promises they cut off vista.leopard might not me major, as some pc guys use as excuse, but vista is surely not the change between OS 9 to OSX im sorry, but its simply the truth.

i dont even know a entry level same price server pc based that may handle that much expansion...

I shouldn't be bothered with you, you just don't get it.
You said 'near future', not now.

And plenty of news sources have stated that Vista WILL support EFI, in the 64-bit version.

The only feature MS has promised that hasn't been fufilled is WinFS, and even a year or two ago they said it wouldnt make it. Fortunately, they have made Vista search just as good as WinFS IMO.

vista is surely not the change between OS 9 to OSX

No-one ever said it would be.

You really should do your reasearch before you start rambling about.

well, i get it now, u will have ur nice 64 bit capable intel core duo with a vista normal edition running bios LOL,well in any case good for microsoft, they moved to the new century, funny that there will be seperate versions, nice selling technic, and well truth be told, if there is no big leap between xp and vista, i think people will get tired of a same system only "better" and well, it conforts me to know pc fans dont expect as much, so osx will still be a more efficent and stable OS, as vista will still be a nice winxp.And no one actually said it would be, they just said it was microsoft biggest leap.And if that's all that microsoft can do, well sofware wise, that's simply sad.BTW the powermac CURRENTLY handles 4tb of RAM, which exist, but not for a very comercial sale, so u should reaserch before u start rambling bout, just go to the link i sent u, the powermac specs are well put there and it states it CURRENTLY handles up to 4 tb of ram, even though currently is no comercial or feasable for apple to selll it with that specs, which in that case u can buy it externally, as apple only goes as far as 16 gb of factory installed RAM.i have never seen a quad with 4 tb, heck never used one, but the ITESM insitute in mèxico currently has a 1tb RAM quad powermac, so yes, its possible, even though they probably spent more on RAM that on the actual mac, but they use it for scientific reaserch and calculus, actually its where right know the votes for pressident are beign calculated here in mèxico, u can find a link which talks bout the computer, they're plenty out there.

Huh? Stop going into outer space here.

You said my PC wont handle 4 teras of Ram in the future, I say it will.
I never said Apple hadn't done it already. Plus they don't manufacture the actual hardware. As far as I know, Intel does it

lolapoa....now nobody'd call you a fanatical fanboy, would they!! Could they?

Maybe you should have a word with Steve Jobs....maybe your undaunting enthusiasm for all that is Mac will get you a job as head of sales...given your determination to convince all and sundry that Mac is supreme, above all else.

Mind you, given Apple's 10% market share, you'd want to do a better job than here or it'll nose-dive to below that. Put bluntly, you're showing the same arrogance as the Apple ads by extolling the virtues of Mac while denigrating Windows based PC's....something that's not appreciated too much by those who own and enjoy using Windows.

By all means, tell us how you enjoy using Mac, OS-X, but please come down off the zealots soap box and comment on its features, rather than rubbish the opposition to give it an undeserved 'Godly' status. Okay, Mac stuff is good, we get it, but hey, it's not all that is good....to each his own, eh!

vista will still be a nice winxp.

Unfortunately, this is not correct.

The graphics driving code is completely different. This is just one of the differences.

Personally, I do not consider a computer anything more than a tool, so I have no interest in degrading others for their efforts (whether it be a person or a company).

Microsoft is starting to move in the direction of "Live" services with the departure of Bill Gates from the day to day runnings of the business. He is now working in the areas of providing better futures for others by providing funds for many education based programs.

At some point, the use of Microsoft as the "big bad wolf" will end, and another enemy will have to be found for the ever present need to fight.

well i didint know intel did the powermac, i thought it was g5 OMG!
í have not denigrated windows, i just wanna take case the diference between both OS, hell pc is great for buisness, i work at the latin america division of a animation studios, and even though some weird oowner loves mac (wonder who it would be) we use pc to make mostly office docs, specially excel, as the office division does have pc's, and they are good in what they do, but they crash more often, have more virus more often,etc,and osx justs, gets buggy with apps till the software company realeses a patch,doesnt freeze if u dont over demand the harware (macs have panics whan the amount of ram, cpu, and paging is not able to keep up with all that ur doing,windows and ALL OS out there do the same)does 3d rendering for animations better, is more user friendly, has a 3d interface, doesnt spend ram in generic processes, its organized (windows folder looks like a train wreck, correct me if im wrong)it UNIX based (10 times as stable as any MS-DOS, its mainly used for super servers, maybe uv'e heard bout it). OH and one more thing dont take bill gates as a giving charity god, use google and search for QDOS,that is what made bill gates be recalled by many as a thief, or watch the silicon pirates movie, even steve jobs has done stupid, selfish and things that almost got apple lost, i hate steve,he uses the "friendly" game, but dont get me wrong, hes not much better than mr gates. oh and on the new INTEL G5

OH and one more thing dont take bill gates as a giving charity god

I don't think he is a god (far from it). My point was that he is leaving the daily running of MS to others now, and is pursuing a path that will help others and leave a statement about the things he cares about in the end.

IMO - life is a culmination of all that one does, the bad and the good, which can only be truly summarized at the end.

From my understanding, he believes in treating problems not by throwing money at them, but by educating people on the cause of problems and how to prevent them (the teaching of which will be done by others). His willingness to provide funding towards programs that fit this definition is just one example of a wealthy person wanting to give back to the world which has provided so much for that person. The recent support of Warren Buffet is another example of the great possibilities of what funded organizations can do for the world.

When you compare the generosity of these possibilities to the business environment currently supporting the "Mac vs. PC" battle, it seems to put the human element into perspective - at least from my point of view.

I think it is great that there are different machines with different operating systems, and feel that each provide a great experience for many different people.

lolapoa,

You have some valid points, though it would be great if you could place some line breaks between some of your sentences which would result in easier reading.

No offense intended, just a simple step toward an accepted approach to presenting words in a legible way (not that I am a well honed professional writer).

Sorry, and well i dont belive that from bill gates, as he has earned success by fraudulent acts...and that cant stand.

Ok, the Gates foundation is there, but sometimes ppl just don know the story behid the story, i mean bill maybe not that rich if he didnt lie when he bought Qdos froma garage based company for 500 dolars, saying he had a very small company that wanted the os, well IBM was not small....what a quality person right? that's my referral, maybe hes doing good, but that's to clear his mind up....OOPS sorry just installed tiger 10.4.7 and have to reboot, see ya.

Oh by the way i work for disney latin america, animation department (pixar latin america) and as i stated, the diference between pc fans and mac fans is this: i dont insult pc, its good for what people need it, but mac os y as good in its apps and ppl here just go, photoshop runs better on pc, video edition better on pc, 3d rendering better on pc, and well its not true, mac has zealots cus pc thinks in a box "what is ms based welcome, what is not its trash" its sad that people think like this.

Im still in college and work as sponsor there so i get laid with the office work 50% of the time, even though im 2 weeks from finishing college (thank god!) and im going in formerly as a designer, the point is i boot my mac in windows 50% of the time, cus it makes better office job, and that's the intention of windows, as for mac is mostly heavy duty rendering, design, and stable more accurate stuff.

but they crash more often, have more virus more often,etc

Was in my local Apple store.....another customer was complaining his G4 was freezing and crashing while he was editing DVD's, that the only way he could get out of lock-up was to hard shut down and restart. The store clerk suggested that intensive graphics work can do that (even on a Mac), that he could try doing things in smaller blocks and save his work to create the finished product....or that he may have a virus/trojan and should run an anti virus program.....

Does that deter me from getting a Mac? No it does not....what's more off-putting is the snobbery and fanboyism that's prevelant within the Mac community, something that's fostered, nurtured even, by the advertising mentality, elitist prices and Steve Jobs' smug attitude....

Heaven forbid that when I actually own one, a zealots soap box sprouts beneath my feet and I start bumping my gums with fanboy-speak. If that happens I'll have to sell it!

Here's an aquarium that I LOVE that you CAN'T run on a mac.

http://www.dreamaquarium.com

Amazing how somehow they got it to run on a PC (which everybody knows can't do graphics???)

INTEL G5

Dammt lolapola, how many times do we tell you to not just start typing stuff when it isn't valid?! What you just wrote made you look incredibly stupid. Intel does not make the G5 processor, IBM and Motorola do. The Intel PowerMac will be called the Mac Pro, feature a Dual-Core Conroe (Intel Core Duo 2) or Dual-Dual-Core Conroes (4 cores).

See, I'm at least somewhat intelligent.

Our nearest Apple Store is in another state (New Hampshire)

sorry, but right now there sticking with g5,im sorry to tell u! and i know it from a good source, oh and i said that the graph work goes better on a mac,and RENDERING, is better on a mac, just go to disney/pixar and see what computers they use to animate. Oh and like i said, mac has kernel panics when u load more than ur specs can handle!
oh and the powerbook is somhow old,ppl with mac had to wait to get into a desktop mac to make heavy work cus as u stated, g4 was like an intel PIII,sloooow old and sluggish,another factor on making a dvd (specially using idvd software) is the coding, one slight mistake on the menu (for instance not converting audio to aac) will make idvd impossible to open the file, even though u saw it with the music when u first did it, common issue, use google or go to www.macosx.com and meowy, i heard bout macbook 3 moths before launch, and mini, and MBP,never heard of mac pro as the substitute of powemac, it will be intel's twin version, but g5 will stick in, in fact, only quad stays and will remain as the top of the line system, im not sure, but then why do they keep doing things in universal binary, why not then do what the did to os9, emulate osx software...cus g5 is staying!

Nope everything will be Intel once the new one comes out in August.

http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=21162

Indeed, the Intel Conroe (current codename of the desktop chip) has already been manufactured with four cores on the die.

They (Intel) have indicated that the first release will have two cores on the die, and future releases will most likely have four cores.

There are other codenames (I did not bookmark the article) for the notebook and server chips from this next generation family of chips from Intel.

I do know that the desktop and notebook chips support power management similar to the speed stepping capabilities of the Pentium "M" chips, which are widely considered Intel's best chip to date when considering work load to power use (and heat) ratio.

It should be exciting for both the PC and Mac platform when these are released, especially if they get the four core (true quad) released with good power management and heat dissipation.