adni18 adni18

Hello!

Hello!

WinCustomize is a great school!
Even if the majority of members here are not children any more( they still have a lot to learn!
I have learn a lot of things for 2 years now, thanks to you, thanks to positive or negative comments to authors and of course, thanks to messageboard arguments, they were all very useful, for one who likes to learn!
I must say there is a quallity in WinCustomize MessageBoard, you can't find very easy in a public MB.
There are some exceptions though, from some persons, but that's life, in any activity of life there are always some bad exceptions.

You may ask why I am writing all this now, because I have spend too many hours to read some long threads in the messageboard those last couple days, (you know the language problem for the foreigners) and I want to share my thoughts about what I have read with you.

Some really nice people, both sides, they have lost control when they have try to express their thoughts, both ways.
No harm is made, both sides they have understand well what is going on and they have turn down their tones.
I hope and I wish the tones remain like this.

Why all this happening, this is the important question!
I can tell you my opinion, it is the only thing I have to offer you about this problem.


Reason 1:
In the messageboard, there are some people who like to make fun to others, no matter if their fun hurts the others or they want to be accepted as clever or perfect ones. This gives a wrong and bad impression to many people who may think that this is WC.
(By the way, we must not forget that this is an Intenational site and not all are knowing the English language well, so this may be another reason of missunderstanding and wrong conclusions).

Solution to Reason 1:
The admins who are in general nice persons, (nobody wants to have an admin in his site who sending away the people), when the see a post that it is not well-meaning or it looks like an offence to another person, they must interact with good words and try to make them understand that this is not an acceptable post for a quality MB, even if they find it that it is correct or fun for them, but offensive for another person.
In that way those x persons they will learn to behave them selves and be nice for everyone and the offended ones will feel that at least they are among friendly people and mates.
We are a community, we must help each other.


Reason 2:
Some persons, are giving bad rattings not only for the quallity of a work, but also for who the artist is and this is some times not fair at all, this is for the bad and the good rates too, so the artists, who are always very sensitive, (how can any one be an artist
without sensitivity?), are geting hurt in a certain away.

Solution to the Reason 2:
The ratting system is very good for the admins and their friends, they are happy to see their high rates, so they find no reason to change it. I don't mean here that they don't deserve high rattings because they do, but this is not the point.
The point is, that very few are giving rates and the ratting system rules in WC, this doesn't happen in any other site, there are rates, but not so crucial as here. Some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons!
The solution is obvious.



Reason 3:
The moderation of wallpapers. I know and you know very well all the story, no need to repeat it here.

Solution to the Reason 3:
Make a new section for the wallpapers, a second one and put there all the wallpapers and let people deside which of them are going to be in the main Wallpaper section. A certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section, please no rattings. If people like something let them have it!
A decent name for this second walls section must not have in any way an offensive name.
A slogan like:
"We are not moderating your wallpapers, we let you
decide
" is very friendly and no one can complain and give a headache to moderators.

This site is for the people and from the people!

(I know that Stardock pays for the site )

Wow! Did I wrote so many in English?
Yes I did, because I care!

Please, don't shoot the piano man!
64,436 views 165 replies
Reply #51 Top
I think thats a pretty good system to use Fuzzy



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Reply #52 Top
/me bows to nikos

i dont care for the ratings system too much, but hey thats my opinion, im gonna live with it

Lots of very civilized conversation going on here, im surprised my impression as of lately is that many ratings are getting bashed i dont know by who but they seem to be.

Reply #53 Top
You have to have a rating system. Getting rid of it isn't an option. Ultimately, this site exists not just for skinners but for users too and without the rating system it becomes too hard for the casual user to just browse through stuff.

No. You don't have to have a rating system to make browsing easier. There are alternatives.

The only option that is removed is the rating. Which leaves us:
1) Author.
2) Created.
3) Updated.
4) Downloads overall.
5) Downloads today.
6) Skin Name.

Some skins (like WB or DX) may have problems with the rating afterall. A skin/theme that was rated a 10 in 2000 does not support the latest features, but still will be presented to the user. Of course the same is true for all other categories.

Other skins that are version independent or wallpapers do not have that problem. The "Download overall" will easily replace the rating.

What to do about the WB/DX problem? Lets take WB as an example. There are already checkboxes like:
- WinXP Support
- ShellStyles Support
- UIS1 Support
- WebBlinds Support
We need an extra option like
- WB 4.x Support.
That option is enabled by default. What will happen is that only the latest skins will be shown. This is a much more effective filter than any rating system can ever provide. Older skins will not show up unless you untag the WB 4.x Support check box.

A similar option can be made for other apps.

So, there is absolutely no need for a rating system.

[Message Edited]
Reply #54 Top
Listen to MadIce!
Reply #55 Top
/me waves at Nikos.
Reply #56 Top
How about a quality control. That is what we didn't cover yet. We want new users only to see the best skins! The problem with my earlier system is quality control.

How about having a thumb up or a thumb down as a rating.

When 50% or more of the votes has a thumb up then the skin is shown. Initially it is hidden.

In the old system the following rating of 3 people could make the skin disappear:
9+9+1=19, 19/3=6, 6=hide.
But when 1=thumbs up and 0=thumbs down then:
1+1+0=66%, 66%=show.
To hide it one needs at least 2 more votes.
1+1+0+0+0=40%, 40%=hide.
It is now harder for individuals to give a malicious vote.
Reply #57 Top
i like this idea alot, should do everything it needs to while keeping the current structure intact of public see no see quality control. keeps people happy as u only can get 2 different ratings show to the public no show to the public, thats how i see it rather that it sucks or doesnt suck.
Reply #58 Top
I am all for it and quick before we see more 'My Babe' wallpapers here...



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Reply #59 Top
What about this option:

1) Author.
2) Created.
3) Updated.
4) Downloads overall.
5) Downloads today.
6) Skin Name.
7) Admins choice

and no rattings, only a certain number of downloads will make a wallpaper jumb to the main Wallpapers section.


Please don't forget that some works disappear because of one bad rate which has been given for personal or taste reasons and this is not fair at all.

I am not telling you what to do, I just want to help, because you have ask, that's all. The choice is yours any way.
Reply #61 Top
Having the option Admins choice everybody going to be happy, we will have quality, we will have a ratting system which it is not so cruel, Brad will be happy, because he wants only the admins rattings, so he will have that option, nobody can complain about quality any more, they have the option to see quallity by selecting "by admins choice", and more important, nobody can complain any more about moderation!
I quess this will solve the majority of the proplems.
What you think?
Reply #62 Top
If 'Admins' choice' is the criteria where-by a skin or wall becomes 'hidden' then once more the admins will be in the firing line for accusations of 'prejudice, politics and cronyism'....I can wear it, but then I've put up with worse...
Reply #63 Top
I, personally, don't have time to check out every skin to find out which ones are of the highest quality. I wish I did. I, therefore, check out the "Ratings" to see which are the best. I must be missing out on some great skins by doing this. "Admins Choice" would be a big help. The admins wouldn't give a "thumbs up" to a skin that sucks. (On download.com they show their "picks".)
Reply #64 Top
Thumbs up or down sound good, but I don't think the burdon should lie on the moderators shoulders. Thats one persons opnion or the opnion of a few if they all vote. If they all see every submission before it gets put up, that will take a long time.



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Reply #65 Top

Not having ratings at all is not an option. Every site has ratings and there's a reason for it -- they are useful.

We already have an admin's choice - featured skins.

Reply #66 Top
It is an option Paul, there are still the other options, nothing will be hidden, it is just a sorting, first your request and then the rest.

But it seems to me now, that it was just a wasting of time, yours and mine.
I guess that not even at the prison they don't make this kind of conversations which are leading to nowhere, where they have nothing else to do

Reply #67 Top
Brad, the thumbs up/thumbs down is a replacement for the rating system the ensures that quality control.

[Message Edited]
Reply #68 Top
Not having ratings at all is not an option. Every site has ratings and there's a reason for it -- they are useful.

Please think about it. You are not. The use is quality control. The thumbs up/down system is doing exactly that. The more thumbs up or down the more fairer it gets. It is not easy to make malicious votes and bad skins still will not shop up by default. You can even sort them by votes. The best ones (most votes) will be on top, the worst ones (least votes) at the bottom.

Reply #69 Top

There is always a delicate balance between the wants of authors and the needs of users.

Deskmod, Skinbase, dA, Customize.org ALL have ratings. I don't understand why we're treated with such a double standard on the issue.

Any site that has any significant amount of downloadable content has some sort of rating system. Otherwise it becomes a mess. A thumbs up / down system is not precise enough and has the same problems. If anything, it's worse.

For instance, how would Adni feel if one of his new skins got 1 up vote and 2 down votes? Who are these 2 down votes? Maybe the 1 person who voted it up thinks its the best skin ever and the other 2 just didn't care for it. That's not a good system. It's a system already in place at Download.com and it's terrible.

There are ways we can compromise such as have moderator only ratings, for instance, But getting rid of the rating system entirely is not a "compromise".

Reply #70 Top
Brad, not many people rate here. The samples seem to work with a small amount of votes too. WC is not download.com. You can even have Journeymen vote if that makes it more secure.

There is no double standard. What we are trying to do is come up with a rating system that is more fair.

How about giving it a try? We have tested for a quite a while with the lists. Then finally a decision was made. Why not try this too? If it sucks we kick the new system.

[Message Edited]
Reply #71 Top
BTW: I can give you equally bad examples with the rating system. In my sample I did.

Rating system sample: 9+9+1=19, 19/3=6, 6=hide. Even though 2 people voted it a 9 it will be hidden.

In the new system it will have 2 thumbs up and 1 down: 66%, meaning show it.

[Message Edited]
Reply #72 Top
I don't like a up or down idea. Plus wouldn't it still mean throwing out the ratings on the tens of thousands of skins alrady here?
Reply #73 Top

Madice, I've listened to the points of view on this and I will say it again: Numerical ratings are not going to go away.

What is open for discussion is who gets to provide ratings. But throwing it out or totally changing it to some other system.

Hamster: It would mean throwing out the ratings -- though they could probably be converted. But again, why do people pick on the ratings on Wincustomize and not on the other sites?

Where is the angst on deviantART or Deskmod or Customize or elsewhere on ratings? Why the double standard? This site exists for both authors and users.

I might also add that the admins of this site have discussed this issue at lenght over the years and there's a pretty general consensus that while ratings aren't perfect, they are better than any alternative. The question is purely how to make them the most fair.

Reply #74 Top
There are no double standards Brad.
The difference is that WinCustomize Rating system it is very cruel, in the other sites you have mention, nothing is not available for the public, even if it has 0, everybody can see it!!!
Reply #75 Top
As for a fair rating system there is nothing more fair than the downloads, nobody lose his time downloading something that doesn't like, and like is a vote!
What can be more fair than this?