Frogboy Frogboy

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.

A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.

A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.

The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar.  But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.

For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.

For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.

Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.

But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place.  We don't show "respect" to people here.

All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".

All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not. 

You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com

In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.

In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).

But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs.  Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.

Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed.  Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.

And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.

33,563 views 135 replies
Reply #76 Top
Some thoughts:

These kinds of things are heated, ugly, and usually come to some understanding if not resolution. The thread stays no matter the conclusion. People come back, they read, they get their passions rekindled.. perhaps not even realizing this issue was long since dealt with.

Additionally, things typed in the heat of the moment (even among good friends) can be hard to interpret. Here we have people from all over the world communicating and reacting. It would be better to have these sorts of discussions person to person, in real time. Users of the message boards have said more than once they are tired of the strife.

Why can't you open a dedicated IRC channel for things like this and refer people who want to participate to it? You have the facility; I know it is easy to set up. Conversations would be real time, ambiguities would be cleared up immediately, and the message board would be left in peace. The participants in the discussion would be people who have some interest in the dispute, or at least enough to go to the effort to attend the IRC channel and not the casual rubber-necker who is following the latest 'dirt'. And, importantly, once the issue is dealt with the channel closed. There is no thread for a late-comer to dig up later and refuel the flame.

Also, and this is just my opinion, I wonder if it is a good idea to keep bringing up people who are not around to clarify their stance. I know Nikos, and I know Madice. They are both intelligent, outspoken people who can and will speak clearly for themselves. This is just something that bothered me more than once. The only people who can really say with authority how and what Nikos or Madice has said or done or meant is Nikos and Madice.
Reply #77 Top
Thanks David (davad 70)
Thanks Diane (goodmorphing)
Reply #78 Top
I know I'm not helping, but I can't get this smirk of my face. I shouldn't be laughing at the sadness of it all, but it's so ridiculous (again) that this smirk seems to be stuck. Begone smirk, begone!
Reply #79 Top
/me is still here............ I'm just in "stealth mode" at the moment.
Reply #80 Top

From my post #36.....

I've had over 25 years as a volunteer Motor Race Official to season me to the disdain shown towards those willing to give up some of their time to help something which would cease to exist without someone doing it FOR 'them, the great public'.....which is why I 'survive'...

[Must find that link....a real laugh...if I can find it]...

Found it.

http://www.videos.scores.de/alien.shtml 

Garn....give it a go....guaranteed to raise a chuckle...

Reply #81 Top
Just for the record, I am here all the time. I moderate skins every day, I am active on the admin message board as much as anyone, and I read these message boards every day. I just don't post on them much, that's all. My point is, just because you don't see all the moderators chatting it up, doesn't mean we aren't here ... watching ..waiting ... muahahahahah. Sorry, I got a little creepy there.



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Reply #83 Top

If you remove the melodramatic aspects of these discussions it boils down to this:

If you make a suggestion and it is not followed, that doesn't mean that the person you made the suggestion to isn't listening. It may mean that they've heard what you have said and simply don't agree.

When it comes to running a site, you will always have a percentage of people who disagree with some specific way it's run.

Case in point: One of the biggest departures from deviantART a year or so ago was over a Nazi image. You have two sides on such an issue -- the "free speech" side and the side that feels that such images are offensive and shouldn't be allowed except in exceptional circumstances (in this case, it was just Nazi art for the sake of trying to offend jewish people I believe).  dA had to choose one of the two paths. There was no way to satisfy both groups. Hence, some of those people left.

More recently, the most popular image there was one that was about masterbation. Such an image would be moderated here on WC.  Hence, on WC you would have a group that believes that we are censoring art. On dA you would have a group that believes dA is not acting responsibly by filtering content.

Who is right? It depends on who you talk to.

It's the same thing here. You ask people who don't like WinCustomize and they're likely going to bring up the same kinds of things. But that doesn't necessarily mean that we are "wrong". It simply means we have a different view on how the site should be run.  We appeal to a different demographic than dA does. That's why we've never seen the sites as "competitors".

You'll note that no one in this thread has said "I'm leaving for Deskmod". Why not? Because Deskmod is similar to WinCustomize. The people who leave for dA are really people who have a significantly different opinion about how community sites should be run. Which is their perogative. But it doesn't make them "correct" and us "incorrect".

Reply #84 Top


#83 by Scribe Frogboy - 7/29/2003 11:12:53 AM If you remove the melodramatic aspects of these discussions it boils down to this:If you make a suggestion and it is not followed, that doesn't mean that the person you made the suggestion to isn't listening. It may mean that they've heard what you have said and simply don't agree.


I have respectfully disagree. For me, anyway, it boils down to "If you make a suggestion and it is not well received, you may get flamed or ridiculed."
Now it may very well be that "they've heard what you have said and simply don't agree.", but often that is very hard to tell in the rhetoric.
Again I must point out that lack of tolerance and courtesy seem to be the gasoline thrown on the spark. I believe that combustion prevents most issues from ever being sorted out as tempers flair, rationality flees, and the end result is bad feelings and resentments with the original issue/suggestion being only one of the casulties.

I am not making these statements to point at any one person or group. I believe, once that type of behaviour begins, it perpetuates amoungst all involved.
Reply #85 Top

pictoratus:

Can you point out a single example of where someone made a suggestion that was without malice or sarcasm or meanness that resulted in a flame?

Consider this latest incident, it's not that someone said "You know what I think might help? Perhaps we should get rid of moderation for reasons X, Y, and Z."

Instead, "suggestions" are usually part of a general attack on individuals, the site, or moderators. I.e. "You might as well get rid of moderation anyway, the wallpapers are crap anyway and the moderators are just using it as a way to let their buddies get download counts."

Both are basically the same suggestion but the latter is likely to result in a flame in return.

 

Reply #86 Top
The fact is, in the past suggestions about ALOT of things have been made, yet for the most part they appear to have fallen on deaf ears.

Yeah, Its great that you guys are open to suggestions/constructive criticism, but maybe some feedback on why X wouldn't work or why something else is impossible?

Frankly maybe a fully moderated site suggestions forum should be created whereby ideas are posted then reviewed by moderators THEN posted.

I mean that way you can avoid flames etc. and get some REAL feedback in both directions going on ideas of handling things.

Sure go ahead and throw the fact that the boards are mostly unmoderated here, but there have been FAR larger communities that have done systems like this and it has worked well.

As far as people flaming and whatnot, I feel that critical mass is nearing where moderators are GOING to have to take a stand and start nuking threads. You can't just let the children run rampant all they want. There needs to be some degree of control, and it typically dosen't manifest itself until threads are a complete and total disgrace to the community. Waiting that long to do something about things like that CAN'T go on. Its not fair to the general members on here who enjoy a pleasant debate/argument/conversation without it having to go completely nasty.
Reply #87 Top

Doomgaze, again, can you cite examples of where people have made suggestion threads where they got flamed or ignored?

 

Reply #88 Top
After seeing the posts of Diane (goodmorphing) I said to myself, enough is enough.

When people are convinced about their right (as opposed to wrong) then nothing will change.

There is an underground war going on for nearly two years now at the MB and now it even spreads to DA.

If you are interested in my point of view about it then read Adni18's https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?BID=WC&id=171683#toppage .
Reply #89 Top
MadIce: If you have something to say, start a thread. Don't repeat your "point of view" to every thread.
Reply #90 Top
What he had to say pertains to both threads.
Reply #91 Top

#32  by JourneyMan davad70 - 7/28/2003 9:38:51 PM .....I have a lot of respect for most of the few admins here who are actually active, but the majority of the admins are nowhere to be found. Treetog, Alexandrie, Mormegil, and MikeB are too bu$y to contribute a whole lot (I don't blame them, but it's a fact). I don't even know who the heck Bagginz, Dark Star, and Flyin are. Stardock employees I assume? Boxxi is rarely around anymore, so that leaves davidk, koasati, paxx, and jafo to basically run the show. It's at least nice that the four real leaders here are about the only ones who aren't on SD payroll or do contract/sub contract work for SD.

Jeez...what am I?  Am I no longer considered an active admin?  Or was I left out because I'm on the "Stardock payroll"?  Funny thing is, 95% of the time that I spend on this site is on my free time.  The other 5% is downloading stuff to test beta versions of our products.

These flame wars remind me of skinz.org days.  Except this current one has gone to a whole new level.  I have pretty much stayed out of this, but what I see the three (already mentioned) people doing seems childish to me.  They are going to a different site and publicly posting things that should be in private email.  I, personally, don't understand it.  And, at least one of them is *personally* bashing somebody.  Bashing the site is one thing, but bashing an individual is just low class.  (Yes, flame me if you will there, but it's how I feel). 

It seems like people have lost all sense of common decency.  People sit in front of their computer and are enveloped in their own little world.  They seem to not see the big picture, and tend to no longer see people as people but as things.  It's easy to bash on a "thing", isn't it?  Do people sit and think about how you would feel if somebody was saying these nasty things about your brother, wife or mother or father?  No, they don't.  Because they don't see people as they are.  It's too easy to disconnect yourself and just blindly bash people than to think of the person behind the words.

I'll take Frogboy (or Frogbutt to some) as an example.  (Mainly because he gets bashed on a lot so he seems like a good example....and I have worked with him for over 8 years so I know him pretty well).  What other *owner* of a company is so involved with the customer base as he is?  If he didn't care about it, why would he be so passionate with his words?  (or, why would he even bother posting about things that he knows he will get flamed for?)  He's the owner of a company, he has deadlines to meet, programming to do, and all the general office stuff, but he still makes time for the site.  You will also find him at home with his wife and kids working on the laptop just to keep up with everything that is going on.  Does he always agree with the popular crowd?  Nope.  But he is honest with how he views things, and he's not a hypocrite.  Now, I know that many other people have the same type of stories.  So, it would be nice if people would just step back and think about the *person* that they are bashing before they type.

 

***the above statements are of my own and do not reflect the views of my employer or maybe anyone else for all that matters...

 

 


[Message Edited]
Reply #92 Top
KarmaGirl "I am so glad to see" is feeling better.


Reply #93 Top
hehe
oh well I have nothing useful to say either cept hello Java! KISS
I'm happy to see you around and about already me hands you some coffee (_)P

(jusss pretend it's JBM in there) hehe

also my two cents w/o reading everything cuz that is alot of reading up there, I think the so called skinning community is growing therefore that means more ppl and more ppl = more bitching & more diff opinions on things (oh no I said a bad word!)

as for me I only have to worry about the opinions of the ppl that give me my paycheck to pay my bills (and even those I really don't sweat much over)
Reply #94 Top
#85 by Scribe Frogboy - 7/29/2003 11:49:05 AM pictoratus:Can you point out a single example of where someone made a suggestion that was without malice or sarcasm or meanness that resulted in a flame?


Frogboy, this is one that I responded to on about the 20th post. It was a question asked in, I thought, a friendly manner, but the inference by the person that started the accusations was that, by merely asking the question,the original poster was trying to start trouble.
Here is the link to the thread
https://www.wincustomize.com/msgboard.asp?id=169384&BID=WC&page=1#170319
Reply #95 Top

pictoratus...I don't think Zodiaq~ was actually in need of your defense/support....by the stage of your posting smilies were being used on both 'sides'. At that time, however one specific post by Zodiaq~ was removed [by me] as it had overstepped the mark.

It's important to clarify that both myself and Zodiaq~ are OK with this, [we've been in contact in private] and with that thread....

Reply #96 Top
Pictoratus: He wasn't offering a suggestion.  And secondly, he wasn't flamed by an admin or a moderator (And if you consider Madice's response a "flame" I can only imagine you haven't been on very many forums <g>).
Reply #97 Top
Ah. The person is me.

Exposure. Downloads. Ratings. Badly treated by admins. Trolls. Whatever.

Ah. A smoke screen. Now I am a troll.

I have enough of it lately. It disgusts me. So, I tell that. I am not forcing you to agree.

But I am forced to take whatever underground tactics that come one this message board. I have to swallow that.

Well, it is very easy to paste a DA quote from you, Pictoratus. You wouldn't like it. But I will not do that. It is much like a war that continues for 2 years now. Like I told you, I have enough of it. I rather work on a solution.

The real question is: Do you want to work on a solution or do you want to continue that war?
Reply #98 Top
MadIce, my intention was not to paint you as a troll. I offer my sincere apologies. Frogboy asked for an instance of the type of message that depicted what I had described in my previous post. That post was in recent memory and your accusation really caught me by surprise. Someone posted "Now where did that come from". That was my internal response.
You are one of the big reasons I felt at home here in the beginning. I had posted my first WB skin and you wrote me with encouragement and useful suggestions. For that I am truly grateful.

As to my comments on DA. GA, Lady A, Apocalypse67, and Jam are my friends as are many here. I told GA I respected him sticking to his guns. I remarked to A_67 that a real meltdown was going on over here. Meltdown in the sense that tempers were flaring and things seemed to be getting way out of control. I stand by those statements. I respect anyone that has firm beliefs and is willing to stick to his or her principles. No one is going to change another person's principle if they are steadfast in them. But compromise and discussion by everyone involved can reach a position hopefuly everyone can live with.

Do all of these types of posts (that I described) have bad endings? No, thankfully they don't. But unfortunately, some do. That thread in particular got back on track relatively fast. My using that thread was to show what my point was, not to point fingers. I don't think there is anyone group that is involved in a concerted effort to 'beat' down anyone. I do believe the the flamng only contributes to the general sense of discontent.

And, yes I know that was very tame compared to some of the message board flaming on other boards. I have previously spoken about some of the Yahoo boards and what a bloodbath they can be. My intention is to bring to light an issue that does make some people uncomfortable. Can it be made better? Only if people are willing to try. Can it get worse? Definitely.
I, for one, would feel remiss in my duty, as a member of a community I have grown to cherish, if I did not try to do my part to make it better. And I believe good communication is the best way to achieve it.

I accept that there is a very real possibility that this has gone on too long for some to ever be resolved. But, as a relatively new person here, I haven't seen the same old issues go on and on for years. I say that because I think its important to point out. Important to get a sense of "What does this look like to the new ones, the beginners. Do we want this place to appear as a warm welcome place or just another Yahoo-like message board filled with anger."
Reply #99 Top
It is fairly easy to stop this all. I don't care about the DA quote. I had a lot of wonderfull stuff like that ready to fire. But if I really did that here and now then nothing would change.

All that is needed is co-operation. And a plan that works for most. There are too many people here. You cannot satisfy all. The group of whiners is relatively small. Yes it is a group, because there are more than just Akasha and GreenArmani.

Skinning should be fun. It is a hobby. Nothing more nothing less. We should stop this nonsense. I am willing. You are willing. But we cannot do it on our own.

[Message Edited]
Reply #100 Top
Brilliant insight Brad. I've witnessed the exact same thing happen in online games.

People start building a group of people to reach a common goal and it becomes a community. But before you know it a gang grows inside of it.



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