Frogboy Frogboy

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

Are people looking for communities? Or Gangs?

There is often a fine line between a "community" and a gang. Some people don't recognize the difference. But there is.

A gang is a self selected group of like minded people who provide unconditional support of one another and consider even relatively minor resistance to their opinions as a great affront that must be attacked.

A gang considers gentle and tolerant behavior between members of the gang but treatment of outsiders can be very nasty, even violent.

The recent melodrama that we saw on the message boards is something that at first looks like just another flamewar.  But looking back on it, what we really have is a confusion between what is a community and what is a gang.

For example, in this recent incident, 3 users, Lady Akasha, Apocalypse67 (to a far lesser extent), and Green Armani, were disgruntled by things they saw on the message boards. Specific behaviors that they considered "unfriendly". But how do you define unfriendly behavior? Well, it seems having looked over their posts, unfriendly behavior is any behavior that disagrees with their points of view.

For instance, in one thread which was yet another complaint about the wallpaper section that, like so many, quickly had one side making baseless accusations against the moderators which eventually got me involved. I said essnetially "I don't care about the wallpaper section. I could care less if any more wallpapers were uploaded." The point of my message was that wallpaper authors do not hold a special leverage. The way we run the wallpaper section is "as-is". Polite discussions on changes are welcomed but threats and peole taking their walls and going are not going to work.

Wallpapers on WinCustomize get more downloads than wallpapers on any other site on the Internet. So we feel justified in the way we run the wallpaper section. I.e. we must be doing something right.

But the response to this was anger and 2 people taking their walls and going because of feeling "insulted". WC was clearly not a "friendly" place.  We don't show "respect" to people here.

All of these words turn out to be code-words for "agreeing with me unconditionally".

All 3 users went to deviantART and proceeded to not just attack WinCustomize in their journals but personally attack the users here and myself specifically with name-calling and the what-not. 

You can see this here:
http://greenarmani.deviantart.com
http://lady-akasha.deviantart.com
http://apocalypse67.deviantart.com

In the Devious comments you can see Lady Akasha and Green Armani saying all kinds of vile things. And yet at the same time, are "disgusted" at the people here and myself in particular. consider that for a moment. I don't recall anyone treating them anywhere nearly as nastily as they are posting over at dA about other people.

In one good example, Green Armani had a problem logging on for some reason. No one had done anything to him. It happens sometimes (not often but it's happened to me too). His first thought was that we had deleted his account for having a differing point of view. He went as far as to imply that the admins of this site are similar to the Nazis and others who would silence dissenters. Except that we had done no such thing. When he managed to log on, several minutes later, no formal apology. Only complaints that he no longer had elite access (which you'll find in every case that these people feel they are entitled to).

But in all of this, the charge is that there is no community here. They're wrong. What we don't encourage here are gangs.  Instead, we value honesty, integrity, objectivity, trust, and fairness. These are the cornerstones of a healthy community. But it's not a gang.

Every once in awhile a community site will find gangs form in their midsts. That is, in my opinion, what we just witnessed.  Such gangs try to impose their views on others and consider any resistance as something to be crushed. the ultimtate code of the gang is that members of the gang are treated with kindness and those outside the gang are treated with utter ruthlessness.

And from reading their posts both here and elsewhere, the ruthlessness and meaness of their personalities has really shown that they don't understand the difference between a community and a gang.

33,330 views 135 replies
Reply #101 Top
Looking back at it I don't think it was a gang, nor the propaganda theory of post #4. Just a group of people that went too far. Whatever the analysis, it serves no purpose. Looks like it is time to end it and work on a solution.
Reply #102 Top
Ah, well who was been displaying anger and negativity this time, Pictoratus? Seems to me the latest round started with people who wanted to stir things up by making accusations against the site (and fellow members) and then cheerleaded for another site.

So it wasn't a matter of someone going hey, I've got a concern here and then getting trounced by "regulars" on the board. It was some one asking "hey, what happened to so & so" and from there other people swooped in with axes to grind (or with an "agenda" as is popularly said now) and posted "oh has another artist been driven from this site?" (Sheesh: I have visions of artists driven out into the wilderness with pitchforks, stripped of their mousepads and paint programs, maybe with only a little bit of art gum to suck on when they're parched. ) And "DA is a great place, we're not treated like children" while they were rather much behaving as children IMO with gratuitous bashing and what I call "unnecessary neener-neenerisms" which should be at least a 20 yard penalty and a loss of down. So the way the discussions went is the site's fault and the mods fault? Or was perhaps there some responsibility on the part of those people who only came back and actively participated just to bash this site and its users? Who set the tone of that discussion?

Meltdown? Out of control? Whoa, uploads and downloads are still going on, likely most members don't spend much if any time on the messageboard and the argy bargy hardly qualified as some seismic event IMO. Two people left and had to make it a public deal. And had to come back and make sure that it and they were not forgotten. (After all, what's the point of leaving if few people notice and most of those who did forgot about it?) It's hardly some heroic endeavor; neither was their behavior particularly uplifting and ennobling of the human spirit. Perspective: This is just a skinning site, one of several well known sites. There are other choices where one can hang one's hat. It's hardly the equivalent of making a stand at Thermopylae when one chooses one site over another.

The message board is what people who post in it make of it. That includes everyone....including the people who post to stir up stuff, make a public pronouncements, stage a public huffy fit, etc, not just the people who respond to them. I find generally that if I approach people in a finger-pointing accusatory manner with my mind already made up that it's all someone else's fault that my nose is out of joint, the response I'll receive likely won't be a warm welcoming one. One would have thought that people who are "sensitive" and so attuned to human feelings and emotions would have figured that out years ago.


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Reply #103 Top
#70 by Scribe Fuzzy Logic - 7/28/2003 11:47:03 PM Apologies for losing my temper. This wallpaper argument has been festering since before xmas. As I spend some 6-8 hours a day here after a few months it becomes very tiring. I have just had enough of all of it. You can imagine how the Admins feel. It's a pity people don't come up with solutions to problems instead of going on the attack day after day.And thanks for appreciating my suggestion for the wallpaper section. I'm certain it's an idea which will encourage the better artists and lead to less controversy.



Just a thought here; Just like your issues or whatever you wish to call them have been 'festering' do you think it's possible some of us as well have had a thing or two festering, and just like you said things out of anger, that may or may not have been additionally fueled by things that you've felt for a while, and kept bottled up? So then maybe just maybe...you can see our side just a little? Maybe we too have felt certain things, and kept quiet and like we all know the dam breaks someday. I'm not trying to dwell onit, just trying to shed some light is all. It goes both ways.

As I already said last night, YES YES YES I was WRONG for what I called Brad. Yes, that was childish. Yes, it takes a lot for me to get really angry, but when I do that is when I'm not at my most elequont. I am cognisant of that that flaw. And I know that when I get that angry, I could say thing 'better' if you will.

But as I also mentioned last night look at history for all involved. Look at mine. Have I ever been the lead of a flame before, or involved in major controversy? NOPE! Look at Armani's history while he was here, was he involved with major controversy? NOPE! He is one of the NICEST guys you could meet. He bends over backwards to lend a hand to fellow artists and any knowledge he has, he'll share it. No strings! If you're having a bad go of it, he's the kind of guy that'll say just pop in an say, "hope things are getting better". And those of you who knew him while he was here, KNOW that he was always always NOTHING but NICE! All I am saying is look at the whole picture!

History speaks a lot! Just like we may be angry, and you are too, you have that right.But remember history and look at ALL OF OURS! We're not ranters constantly are we? We too just like you Fuzzy may have had a thing or two 'festering' You all want apologies and calling us gangs, and the like...then please remember the mirror has two faces!

/me shakes head, I'm so tired, I don't know if I made any sense.

And indeed A 67 was dragged into the mud...and I will take responsibility for that. And I have already extended an apology to him for that. Because as he alwayd does, he was handling it like a gentleman. I did start the first smart ass remark. Just like Fuzzy said he had festering...I did too! And as I already mentioned on the page 3 of this thread how the rest went,(no matter how long mine are ).

#72 by e-bros - 7/29/2003 12:03:44 AM

LadyA...sweet dreams...and maybe nobuddy said it...but you were and still are appreciated by people.

Thank you e-bros, that is a very kind thing to say. It truly is appreciated.


#73 by goodmorphing - 7/29/2003 12:06:29 AM mOrphium... He still is a good guy. You can't make judgements on a single thing, especially something as heated as this. For all people keep an open mind and don't judge. Everyone has bad moments.


Thank you good morphing,that was cool of you to say. That is where I was going with my as usual long winded post.

Now again goodnight...I'm tired. And I haven't created a darn thing in weeks...thus I am frustrated, being blocked sucks.


Reply #104 Top
#91 by Admin KarmaGirl - 7/29/2003 1:46:39 PM I'll take Frogboy (or Frogbutt to some) as an example. (Mainly because he gets bashed on a lot so he seems like a good example....


Yeah, he can't even post WindowBlinds news without beeing bashed. Over at Skinbase they had to delete all the comments of the WB 4.1 news, because it seemed to get out of hand (I couldn't read it all before it disappeared). And a very difficult ex-member from this site was starting that (And it was not even about the Software itself but about the company, Brad personally and Wincustomize and in a hatred matter). I don't agree with all Brad says, but those are things I just can't stand. But a sense of injustice makes You a 'Fanboy' on other sites and You are out... 'Haters' therefore are fairly welcome (And I don't have DA in mind with that...).




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Reply #105 Top
where's Shoggot when you need him?
Reply #106 Top
Heh 6 armed wall moderator could be useful

Some people just couldn't accept criticism. All communities have such problems as this. I'll be happy when all comments is either A: Good comment, even better when detailed, B: Criticism thats detailed.

As always theres always people that want to take down authority/moderator/admin/whatever to gain nortority( sp ).

It is always easy to hurt people when you can't see them, and some people think it's okay because they don't see anyone hurt. It's same on flip side, posters can offend easily since theres no body language to show that it was a joke or not serious.
Reply #107 Top
Sometimes healing starts with...forgiveness and empathy. Frogby was most gracioius in forgiving LadyA and so the healing process goes forward thus...we hope.

For the record...we don't think people whom call themselves "artists" are saying they are superior to skinners. Hmm. Quite the contrary...they just don't have any other title if they don't skin is all. Right? Since this is a skinning site ...imagine if you will that many people who come to share their "art" are just trying to give and hope for a bit of input and sharing. That's not a bad thing. But where things went wrong is when it became an "us against them" thing. That IS patently wrong especially since if you look on this site there is a LINK TO DA...hence...it is a sister "site" and Frogboy tried to say that but it didn't exactly compute maybe.

There is nothing wrong with sharing your works on MANY skinning sites...participating in many skinning sites does not make you a traitor inasmuch is it just means you spread yourself thinner and let's be real. Human nature tends to make us want to feel at "home" some place where we can be mutual friends and share mutual ideas and laughs and even the occasional disagreement...

But when it comes down to it...we are ALL human and EGO does sometimes rear its ugly head and make us not think so rationally...and sometimes we can think up conspiracy theories and wild convoluted "what ifs" but in the end...a lot of people love it here and want to stay.

Maybe the "name" and download/top-authors thing will one day shift but for now...yes it's true a competetive spirit will pump out stuff just to be on top regardless of quality. We did delete our last rated "5" wall out of shame for even submitting it after all the admins have been thru. We have held back our submissions for a while to just participate on the boards and get to know folks here. And even with all this "negative" stuff there have been some really fun and positive posts.

So, let's not forget this place doesn't have to be ugly...and let's remember if this WAS a NAZI regime...we'd have never even SEEN the posts that ever cause so much ruckus in the first place.
Reply #108 Top
Maybe not so much 'gang'... maybe more of a clic?

Or the click? Clicks act like gangs but are far less voilent. A gang does not have to be a group of friends (they can actually not like each other allot) but a clickmostly are firends of the same mind.
Reply #109 Top
I read most of this and I have to say as badly as it went, I do think it went better then previous times.

That seems to me a change for the better.
Reply #110 Top

Rolf....'notoriety'...Spell checker

e-bros....'competitive'...Spell checker

Joe...'clique'...Spell checker

Reply #111 Top
Jafo...is your dictionary wearing out yet?
Reply #112 Top
Karma...not with the likes of these...
Reply #113 Top
Jafo...is your dictionary wearing out yet?


nah his 1,127th dictionary is brand sparking new.
Reply #114 Top


I knew something was wrong with how I spelled it!

Just couldn't see the light...
Reply #115 Top
Joe...I AM 'the light'....
Reply #117 Top
Jafo ya gotta give us props for not using a spellcheck even if we shoulda tho Prolly needed a grammar check too but shhh! !
Reply #118 Top
Grammer check? here? no way.

Spell check is fine...

Reply #119 Top
sometimes you have fun. sometimes the fun have you.

schlock mercenary
Reply #120 Top
As the man in the movies said " Now just play nice "
Reply #121 Top
Can four months bring such change in a community? When I took a sabbatical, this was one of the best (THE BEST, rather) skinning sites on the net and I felt at home at it. Now, when I return, I find that the entire fabric of the community has torn revealing the uglier side of people...

For the record, I have found most (99%, in fact, if I could put in a number) WCzens helpful and kind. I never felt that kindness, manners and the sense of brotherhood (or sisterhood) found on this site was a show...

In fact, my growth (if any) as a wallpaper artist (I know, its not much, but I love the stuff that I do) has been nurtured by the members of this site. WOM was the first one ever to offer me a comment and a piece of advice. Bryceboy (a.k.a. JamMeister) was and still is a good friend. Lady Akasha helped me to create the logons. And I share a good rapport (and a healthy sense of competition) with A_67 and G_A. As for the admins, Jafo has been a constant fountainhead of opinions and suggestions and has been very helpful. Same goes for Frogboy (though I have had just 3 interactions with him till date, he seemed to me like quite a helpful person). And KG too.

Then what is this fight all about? Even when there was this deeply political and dividing issue of the 'war on Iraq' being discussed on the messageboard, there was not as much vitriol... There was always an undercurrent of respect of the other person's POV on the matter. Tell me guys, what changed in four months??? >
Reply #122 Top
@shu, Thank you my friend for the kind words. As to your question, I can't answer it. You will just have to spend a few hours and read the threads and come up with an answer for yourself. Sorry. And again, welcome back.



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Reply #123 Top
I tried WOM, I mean going through the entire message board. And yes, I did read the statements that Lady Akasha, A_67, G_A and FrogBoy made. But what I want to know, is why did such a situation arise that they had to lower their standards and come to mud - slinging??? What went wrong? Is this a disease that is fast spreading across this board?

The other day too, I was reading comments posted by some members on the walls, cursors etc. and was disgusted by the lack of respect for the time the artist took to create that piece and his/her readiness to share the same with the other members of the site. What happened to the art of 'constructive criticism' or am I flogging a dead horse?
Reply #124 Top
@shu, idiotic comments seem to go in cycles by 1 or 2 new people. The other seems to happen every 3-4 months, but this time it got somewhat out of hand. Who knows!



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Reply #125 Top
jafo - maybe it's because i'm older, but i've got bite marks all over the hand that i normally extend in friendship. they're marks of honor, not the emblems of a fool.