Vasari Loyalists Ridiculously overpowered (and minidump)

i dont know what devs changed internaly this week but i havent been able to play a single game without me minidumping.

Last week i had  MD in about 30-40% games . now EVERY GAME.

137 wow it took u 2 weeks to get it. And the rest of sheeps who cry: no VR no VR

Actually, I was the first to say it publicly. Check the other thread here and following:

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/424891/page/3/#3154933

https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/424891/page/4/#3155601

So apparently, no sheep here. It's just that someone devised a way to make the stripped rush inside the 15 minute mark (I'm being cautious, it was before): now it's far worse.

If people are sucking all the planets dry then you have already lost the game, if you can't compete and control your own territory and allow them to walk in and suck it all up. And then if they are going around doing that unchecked then even if you stop them they are going to have am massive pool of resources.

Basically, it suffices that they suck their own planets. Infact, it's better to do so, build a massive fleet, and then take more to strip, than just waiting for resources to accumulate. With labs on board, you don't need planets, except a pair for ship production.

It would be a good idea to think before speaking, I would add.

Son, you homosex? I have yet to hear as ill informed comment as this.

How can you stop someone eating up planets on large maps? in 15 minute mark you cant hope to project enough firepower to stop people for ninja colonizing a planets and scuttling them.

Smaller maps its manageable, large maps, it ruins the game unless you have a planet eating eco stop player too. 

It is a multiplayer must have meta.

Yeah, the planet consuming tech really should be moved to a later tier of research IMO- it can be rushed way too quick.  Then again, with how stupid-fast the loyalists can get labs from their capital-ship-lab ability, it may not make a difference.

Or maybe have something that gives the vasari's opponents more time to retake their planet before it gets chewed to pulp-like a 5 minute timer after a planet is colonized before it can be devoured.

Its simple: put a half an hour /hour time limit on each colonised planet before you can scuttle it. This gives other players time to take the planet before it implodes. Also neutrals will have a chance to destroy the colony before the planet as well..

Admit it though, strip planet is the coolest ability in sins. It needs reworking, not removing.

I just wish that stripping took 5-8 minutes and warned other players when it was started.

Planet stripping should take 5 minutes and essentially be seen as a big "Screw you" from the VL to everyone else. So they'd get neutral factions attacking them and give players a chance to as well. (Think like militia and/or pirates attacking with a largish fleet, maybe even a pirate capital ship)

I've been able to duplicate the 15 minute planet eating method and I will say that until you have that ability you are completely defenseless.  Usually I only ninja eat the planets with only 1 siege frigate because you can scuttle the planet more quickly than they can kill it.  I guess sending some vettes in to kill the siege frigs is a way to go but in either case upping the strip timer to 2 or maybe 3 minutes max would drastically reduce the effectiveness of this strat. 

In my humble opinion 5 minutes is unnecessary and will swing the pendulum too far to the nerf side.

Honestly I don't think anything less would make a difference.

For a delay to actually constitute a counter, the vasari's opponents need enough time to:

A). Marshal their forces(which may take some time as they obviously didn't have the forces rpesent to defend the planet)

B ).  Attack the planet(which considering ship speeds, and the need to jump at least once takes some time

C) Destroy the planet before it can scuttle

Anything less then 5 minutes and it becomes a delay of the inevitable rather then an actual chance for the opponent to capture the planet back before it gets eaten.  Heck, 5 minutes is actualy on the short side for realistically beign able to recapture the planet.  WHen it comes down to it, it's just not balanced that the vasari loyals are pretty much guaranteed to be able to eat every new planet they capture- their opponents need a fair chance at getting the planet back before it's gone forever.

That said, if possible it would be better to institude Volt's idea of making the actual scuttling process take a bunch of time and give warnings.

Though in actuality I think the best route would be to make the etch just come out later(not available in first 15-20 minutes)- but that probably isn't possible being that vasari loyalists can get to 8 research labs trivially easy with their capitalships bearing labs.

make it a skill the titan does instead. Titan will need to be built and present in the gravity well. One step further may be adding it to the level 6 upgrade (the maw) when used on a planet it will consume all resources. v0v

I know I am very guilty of planet scuttle rushing... of course depending on the surrounding planets it can sometimes be hard to get ALL the minerals you need [to build your titan and your ships and upgrade]. Saying that sentence already means it's a bit too powerful. If necessary you can even eat your terran capital and everything would be fine. I kinda like the idea of it being a Titan ability instead [that way you don't use the stripping to bring out your Titan], but shouldn't be a lvl 6 ability. Also, what ability would be replaced? Maybe somehow incorporating a fleet, replace the phase stabilizer with the planet eater and somehow the explosion of the planet creates phase space for the dark fleet to come in. The rush might be slowed down a little by this... but endgame you are still dealing with a giant fleet hopping from planet to planet eating worlds. Then again, what else was expected?

As an add-on, I don't like overextending the scuttle time. If I'm planet eating, it isn't to fun to wait too long for my minerals or my flashy lights. Then again, it can't be too fun for the opponent. If it was on a Titan there'd at least be cooldown, thoug I am not advocating the titan idea too much, it's just an idea. I DO like the 'screw you' alert that goes to every player, though. You'd think a solar system would notice a planet going missing at least. That'd at least give some aggro to that player so everyone might band together to fight his now growing fleet.

Without 5-8 minutes, you can't really marshal your forces to launch an invasion sufficiently powerful to stop the stripping as mentioned by Bilun.

I also disagree with having the Vorastra do it.  Later in the game, IMO, it wouldn't feel right to have to send my titan around to each of my planets to eat them.

Im also very guilty of the Strip rush lol. You can use it to get the max capital ships AND your titan out within 5-8 minutes if you practically ignore all but the necessary research, devour the planets adjacent to your capital (INCLUDING your capital eventually) except for an asteroid after building the titan that's being defended with your capitals, and dont build any logistics except civic research and then scuttle those after you research ship labs. But up to and during all this time you ARE vulnerable. Very, if i may so.

But otherwise, i agree. they're  overpowered. I mean you have a massive fleet that focuses on military research with its massive amount resourcces, just draining the galaxy. the ability should be condensed to the titan, buuuttt i believe it should ALSO target resource asteroids ( they give a 1000 boost to cystal or metal and maybe a 500 credit boost?) and that your titan be able to generate tax income/and or culture if you devour you capital.sgip research labs should be pushed back in the tech tree. but the rest is okay. to be honest, you don't the current maw ability if you have an army of 14 level 4 caps with various abilities surrounding it. the ALONE titan couldnt even stand up to an average fleet WITH it if there's an enemy cap there!

@Volt: What's necessary for balance isn't always necessary for comfort. If anything, it would encourage you to devour enemy planets and not youe own while at least forcing your titan into the fray.

I was originally just thinking of my own setup, which usually means there ARE no other planets to eat. But good point, I wouldn't like it either. Of course, with phase stabilizers it wouldn't be AS bad. But still bad. But I don't want to lengthen the stripping time ;_;

*still thinking of some sort of alternative balance and failing*

I think they should make the time required dependent on the type of planet and the number of capital ships, and their level, you have in orbit around the planet.

The default time could be something like 60 minutes for a Terran/Desert planet, 45 minutes for a volcanic/ice planet, 30 minutes for a moon, 15 minutes for asteroids/pirate bases, and 5 minute for dead asteroids. For every capital ship you have in orbit, the timer speeds up by 10%. For every level your capital ship has, the timer speeds up by an additional 2%. A Titan would speed up the timer 3 or 4 times as fast as a capital ship.

So let's say that you want to strip a volcanic planet and you have one level 6 capital ship, 2 level 4 capital ships, and 2 level 3 capital ships. The time required would be 45 minutes divided by 1.8 (1+(5 capital ships*.1 + 15 capital ship levels*.02)) = 25 minutes.

There could be a tech that either decreases the default time or increase how much each capital ship affects the timer.

The minimum amount of time you can strip a planet would be something like 6 minutes for Terran/Desert planet, 4 minutes for volcanic/ice, 2 minutes for moon, 1 minute for asteroid/pirate base, and 30 seconds for dead asteroids.

Dear sheeps, why use half-measure , devs should remove that tech from game or make it aviable after 3 hours game. Simple.

VL need to risk a lot and sacrifice to strip planets. They need serious rebalancing. Amount of cash and resources should be reduced 30-50%. Time for striping should be doubled to let single siege kill planet before its stripped. But , also,  Roid and moon should give a bit more from stripping and VL titan need love.

After playing sucesfuly few games, i understund VL titan is an obstruction. It done give me anything that i already dont have, it has no aoe ability (lv6 for VL is like wining in lottery) , its jump gate ability  has such a cooldown building gate on conqiered roid take less and for resources  you spend on that useless titan u can have a lot of carriers. Also maruder has a JB on lv6 with much usefull cooldown. ! more thing itd passive defence ability is a joke.

Titan needs AOE or focus fire from lv1. JG needs its cooldown halved  and life doubled or even tripled.

This titan should spamm it permanently with ability on lv2. Make it worth the money. Or leave VL alone at it is

PS u will say its homeworld ability make it worth money. Bullshit. VL dont need HW at all. 90% of games i keept my oryginal HW. in rest it didnt matter at all. i Had income form striping and big fleet. aleso i was stopping form time to time for resuplaying.

Whan i , once , had titan that actualy was my hw  , incom was laughable about 4 or 5/s

Theres nothing more beautiful than sniping a low level titan with carriers. Absolutely lulz me..

I was waiting for the 100ft troll to come out of the closet.

What if instead of moving the Stripped to the Core tech farther up the tree, you were to reduce the amount of resources gained and add an upgrade a level or two higher in the tech tree that would give you increased resources from stripping planets? (When I say increased resources from stripping, I mean to the level that it currently gives you.)

Also, upping the timer/increasing the damage of neutral siege frigs so you can stop ninja stripping planets would help bring the strategy into a more reasonable line of use.

Vasari Loyalists are fine, no need to overreact. Ofc, they might need some nerfs (and their Titan some buffs), but suggesting stripping of the planet to be doable only after an hour or so of game time, is drfinitely going over the top. 

Personally, i can see:

- Strip to the core moved to tier 8

- stripping process take 3-5 minutes

- removed the second level of the shipboard lab, so you always need at least 8 capships to have all the research tiers covered, no 2 labs per capship anymore

- dark fleet beacon ability would require all the ship types, which are part of those dark fleet reinforcements, to be researched

The Vorastra could use some buff to weapons and Desperation, and as stated by many people times and times before, spawn phase stabiliser cooldown needs to be shorthened, cause currently, you dont want to go completely mobile, you rather keep your planets for the shipyards and use the spawned phasegates only as "rally point" for those ships built elsewhwere. Bottom line, going completely mobile is not viable, as you cant replenish your forces fast enough.

Additionally, spawning phase gates needs to be targetable and the Maw exact opposite, instantly activated by simple click, regardless of the fact, whether are any ships actually in front of the Titan - its up to you to move/rotate it into good position and press the button in right moment.

And that would be IMHO all.

Alternatively as some of you suggest, i could see the Titan and planet stripping to be tied, i called for that long time ago, i like the idea, its way cooler than current implementation. However, i would hate Micro Phase Jump. Maw or Phase Stabiliser to be removed, these are cool abilities, do not touch them! Desperation however, while its cool, its effects could be moved to those weapon/hull/antimatter upgrades, and it could make place for the planet stripping.  Now how frakkin awesome would be the titan then - capable of teleporting, stripping planets, eatng ships and spawning phasegates to summon reinforcements - dream come true for me. Forget that the titan is the weakest one, i would take it with such 4 different, unique and fun abilities over Ragnarov with its "shoot hard, shoot harder, shoot twice as hard" abilities anyday. And it would make sense as well, you could strip planets only if build the Titan/go mobile - so no more "just conquer and strip the enemy planets and do not build the Titan at all" doctrine...

Well that'd ruin my day while making things a bit more balanced. I'm cool with this. Actually, maybe not completely remove the second level of shipboard lab. In the current scheme, the second lab isn't required for the rush. However, if planet stripping was moved to tier 8, it would be necessary along with an extra capital ship [or just build the satellites themselves at that point]. A higher tier 'second level' might work, that way it isn't lost, but harder to reach. I don't like the idea of completely removing it because, at some point, shouldn't VL become fully mobile? You shouldn't NEED 8 capital ships... actually, with the dark fleet it wouldn't be too bad to recover when someone destroys a capital ship, except maybe it will suddenly become unavailable when a cap ship dies. Yea, I don't like the idea of the total extermination of the second level.

That'd make the VL the Full Utility Titan, which is fine by me. Again not perfect, I do like the way things are, but things DO need to change somewhere. Of course if the Titan went full utility, it will definitely still need a weapons buff or a researchable weapons buff. Nothing to make its weapons beyond or even wholly match other Titans [as we have utility instead]. Maybe be able to microphasejump ally ships within its vacinity as well, for added running away ability?

Good Comments Timmy.  Rather than remove the second level of shipboard labs, I think the first level (of the T5 civil tech) should grant 1 Military Lab per Cap ship.  And the second level give 1 Civil Lab for each cap ship.

I disagree with your 4th point.  I like the dark fleet as they are. (Returning Armada has never required the individual ship techs).

I especially like your ideas regarding the Titan at the end.

Timmaigh, that might work.  While I too like the idea of shipboard labs having two levels, the second one does make later tier research arbitrarily simple so I believe it's for the best.

I don't think that the fleet beacon needs to have the prerequisite of every ship type though.  Probably the simpler way would be to require all titan research for the mobile capital research.  Alternatively, if you could make it so that the prerequisite was the existence of a titan, that would be even better as now you know that the player isn't stripping to build their titan but rather stripping to go mobile.

EDIT due to ninja:

I love the idea of splitting it up and making the levels function differently so that first is military labs, then civic labs.