[0.86] [Reflexion] Going deeper in trifunctionalism

Hello, since last week, I’ve been able to participate to the beta of Fallen Enchantress. So I apologize if my experience with this game is not as wide and as thorough as other beta testers. From these first hours with FE, what struck me was the fact that a part of the game designs were inscribed into a trifunctionalist approach, but that this way of thinking and balancing the game has not been pushed into a complete transcription of this concept.

 But first, I must define what is trifunctionalism. Trifunctionalism is a theory issued from compared mythology based on the works of Georges Dumezil. When he studied the myths, the social structures, the ways of thinking and storytelling of indo-aryans peoples (Celts, Greeks, Germanics, Perso-Iranians, Indians, Slavs, Latins), he remarked that they were sharing common traits that could go back to protohistory: they were organized along three main functions that could be found in the myths, the story-telling structures, the taboos, the social organisation that constituted the mental background of these peoples and the upper organization of their ruling elites. He stated that the visible and invisible ways that are ruling the human world were represented by 3 different types of actions or mental structures that produced combined effects but were not sufficient alone to reach balanced results. These functions are often symbolized by the latin expressions “orant, pugnant, laborant” and “oratores, bellatores, laboratores”.

These 3 functions are:

-         The sacred function: the ‘oratores’, whose who pray. This function is linked with priesthood, saints, tales, magic, supernatural, intellectual works, concepts, justice, destiny and oaths. This function is at the core of the beliefs (interdicts, taboos and the social balance of a society). The priests, the magicians, the bards, the great minds are stemmed from this function. Badly exerted, this function is madness, treachery, insanity, oblivion. The associated colours are white or blue.

-         The war function: the ‘bellatores’, whose who fight. This function is linked with force authority, order, defence, courage, willpower and wisdom. This function is to preserve the society form outer or inner dangers by upholding justice and protection in honour and wisdom. The soldiers, the warleaders, and the kings are stemmed from this function. To exert a good authority, a king must be recognized and helped by the two others. Badly exerted, this function is violence, weakness and tyranny. The associated colour is red.

-         The production function: the ‘laboratores’, whose who craft. This function is linked with fecundity, wealth, trade, fine crafts, prosperity, peace, love and beauty. This function is to shape the material world to create bounty, wealth and good living conditions for the society. The traders, the fine arts crafters, the rich farmers and herders are stemmed form this function. Badly exerted, this function is sterility, laziness, greed, gluttony. The associated colours are green or black.

These three functions are exerted simultaneously by their members who together are between 20 and 30 percent of the peoples. They maintain the group strong and impose their will and powers to guide and protect the majority of the poor, illiterate and feeble members. These functions have been visible in Ancient and Medieval times and are considered blurred at the end of the 18th century with the American and French revolutions that are replacing the older orders by the new concepts of Nation-state , One people, Liberty and Equality, mass-conscription and production.

 

Now it seems familiar with FE? We have 3 tech trees (civilization, warfare, magic), 3 main ways of winning the game (by wealth and diplomacy, by conquest, by magic), 3 main colours for the screens (green, red, blue), the sovereign by sword and magic is giving life back to the land and shaping the world to his likeness. Unconsciously (or consciously), the designers have put elements of trifunctionalism into the game but have not pushed the logic to its full extension: we must choose only one tech tree and the towns, which are reduced societies, are only building one new development or training one unit, the units are very generic and generic in their use. Each function is exerted sequentially both on the tech trees and the city screens. These monolinear concepts are coming from Civilization-like games that had other simulating constraints and design, but I think that it could be profitable to FE to balance the game design to have permanent trifunctionalist functions in tech, production, units, champion’s path and factions’ balance in this med-fan world.

 

I think that the adaptation in FE to full trifunctionalism could be minimal. Instead of having one tech researched to will have 3 in 3 different domains. Instead of having one production line by city producing units and buildings you will have 3 coloured production line. The difference between factions could be more visible by the emphasis they have to a particular domain and will have small variations in buildings, units, research. The units and champions should have distinct characteristics and ways of playing.

 

I will present my trifunctionalist concepts for FE in further posts. But for now I’m open to comments.

6,007 views 13 replies
Reply #1 Top

Choices are good. Getting to research 3 things at once and build three things at once means less choices. Less of a good thing is bad. Therefore I don't like this idea.

Reply #2 Top

I enjoy that you have taken the time to explain trifunctionalism.

-------------------------

-> I disagree with building three things at a time

-> I'm on the fence about researching three things at a time, but its probably a bad idea.

 

Reducing Choice is bad. Surely there are ways of implementing Trifunctionalism without reducing choice?

-> In art it is sometimes the convention to try and take an idea to its logical conclusion/ its logical extreme, but in practical things such an extreme would not be necessary.

 

There are those that want each tree to be separate. Even so, most strategies have fairly even (late game) distribution in all three trees.

The dependece of War and Magic on 'civilization' forces this to some extent.

-> So in a way, the current system of tech reliance already emphasizes trifunctionalism to an extent.

-> The synergies between the three trees already emphasize trifunctionalism. Better Civ = more magic and more warfare

 

Therefore while I would enjoy examining this philosophy and its implications, I am not sure that there is an advantage for further implementation within the game setting.

Reply #3 Top

I like the idea of basing the game on those three pillars: three tech trees, three types of buildings, maybe three types of units (but there are no workers like in civ and caravans are gone, so there are practically no "laboratores", only pioneers), and even three types of cities. We don't really need to have three simultaneous productions lines to make those three main domains of society visible.

I will present my trifunctionalist concepts for FE in further posts.
End of quote

I'm looking forward!

Reply #4 Top

Having 3 research areas progressing at once is not probably going to be considered as it would take too much time to implement given the current stage the game is in. Same with 3 production lines. It would also be very hard if not impossible to make a mod for. I like the idea, but it doesn't seem realistic from what I know about the devs' direction for the game and the underlying engine they have been working with. There are, however many ways this concept could be implemented better.

 

But trifunctionalism is an interesting concept that could be fleshed out a little better in the game. One of the questions beta testers have been talking about is the problem of techs having prerequisites in other trees that force the player to research every tree to the point of those prereqs, preventing true focus on one tree. I personally think it is logical to allow every tree to take shape as a culture instead of a category. Blacksmithing, for example, is placed in the Civilization Tree. It is my opinion that the devs see Blacksmithing as something developed by the laboring aspect of a people, that then improved warfare. As I recall from history class, warfare was the driving force behind the invention of metalworking. Therefore I think it should be a Warfare Tree tech. It should be a warfare invention that then improves the laboring aspect of a people. 

Currently Civilization is given too many of the techs that are prereqs for other trees. Warfare is given only a few techs that are prereqs for the Magic Tree. The Magic Tree has no techs that are prereqs for the other two trees. I believe this is the production of mundane beings only able to have the perspective of a mundane world. There should be several techs in all three trees that open up new possibilities in the other two. We live in a society that is primarily Civilization and somewhat Warfare; though warfare is cleverly hidden from everyday view.

How would your perspective offer some better design for the techs trees?

Reply #5 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 4
One of the questions beta testers have been talking about is the problem of techs having prerequisites in other trees that force the player to research every tree to the point of those prereqs, preventing true focus on one tree.
End of seanw3's quote

So there's practically one tech tree. "Three tech trees" is just a UI thing. Good to know (I don't have FE beta). I'm not saying it's a bad thing.

Reply #6 Top

Personally I think going for "magical weapons" in the magic tree is still a warfare choice ... so its almost as if that tech were in the warfare tree, yet it is not penalized for how many warfare techs you already have.

Reply #7 Top

What do you mean by penalized?

Reply #8 Top

I was under the impression that each tech in a tree grew slightly more expensive based upon how many techs you already had in the tree.

I could easily be wrong though.

 

-> if its truly only graphical ... then perhaps magical weapons should be in the Warfare tree (with a magic tech prereq)

Reply #9 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 8
I was under the impression that each tech in a tree grew slightly more expensive based upon how many techs you already had in the tree.

I could easily be wrong though.

 

-> if its truly only graphical ... then perhaps magical weapons should be in the Warfare tree (with a magic tech prereq)
End of Tasunke's quote

That was in WoM

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Tasunke, reply 8
-> if its truly only graphical ... then perhaps magical weapons should be in the Warfare tree (with a magic tech prereq)
End of Tasunke's quote

 

Let's discuss this until the original poster has time to move on with the primary discussion.

 

Magical weapons are an interesting intersection between magic and warfare. It is really a hybrid of the two. The way it is currently implemented allows for magical attack damage to be defended by spell resistance, which is derived from intelligence. It can ignore armor completely. This is a great way to balance magical weapons. The way I see it, magical weapons are very crude, inefficient weapons that only do a fraction of the physical damage a well made weapon would do. The crude weapon, however, is enchanted with elemental powers, allowing it to perform at the same level as an expertly crafted weapon. So, a magical weapon should require a prereq in a low level warfare tech, "Weapons." The rest should be gained from the Magic Tree. Magical Staves ought not to require any warfare techs, because they are the natural expression of magical warfare. I do think that there needs to be a greater variety of magical staves throughout the tree in order to express how fundamental this kind of weapon would be to a magical people. 

The interesting part of the game would be the inclination for two allies to increase their collective strength by trading important prereq techs to save each other time in subsidiary trees. Magical peoples will trade an arm and a leg for Weapons, while warfare peoples will trade an equal amount to learn rituals that increase the abilities of their soldiers and protect them from magical attacks. 

Reply #11 Top

Too bad there's no tech trading?

Reply #12 Top

No, but they might add it if they see it is a reasonable balance mechanic. Allies have very few benefits currently. Tech treaties are the same principal really. 

Reply #13 Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 10

Magical Staves ought not to require any warfare techs, because they are the natural expression of magical warfare. I do think that there needs to be a greater variety of magical staves throughout the tree in order to express how fundamental this kind of weapon would be to a magical people. 
End of seanw3's quote

-> Yep, magical Staves should likely come from a pure magical approach, without the need to delve into any sort of warfare techs ... (however warfare techs would clearly help them survive to get to this point).

Having different staves with different effects would be nice. Some could even come with the odd spell or two (to be used from the mana pool of course)