BeardyDan BeardyDan

Stop messing with Champions!

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Stop messing with Champions!

from Elemental Forums

Whilst I do agree that currently some champs are too good, even overpowered, what in comparison to what? 

The most boring units in TBS history.

OK so that's an exaggeration but its pretty close.  I still remember a Freak in FFH, about 5 years ago; he became a werewolf/vampire and managed to collect almost all the promo's available inc all the level up ones.  How about that Sins dread that survived with only a couple of hp left? I could go on but there are no units from either E:WOM or FE that have the possibility for being long term memorable. There is, maybe, one exception: the Scion because they level like champions each one could, theoretically at least till they get all the promos but that would require a very high level, be different.

The basic level 1 units are ok, I suppose, but levelling them is SUCH a let-down especially compared to champions.  Who even notices that one of their units has levelled, unless you were looking for it?

 

Please consider giving troops traits to choose from on levelling, based on their weapons/faction/race.

Here's some ideas for traits to go with the generic ones:

 

Has bow:

Volley Fire. Active Skill. Unit fires again at one target, but at -3 Accuracy per shot. 3 ranks available

Flaming Arrows: Active Skill. -2 Accuracy, +1 Fire damage, Ignores city defence bonus.

Counter Fire. Active Skill. The unit does not shoot. If an enemy fires a ranged attack at this unit or an adjacent friendly this unit will fire back in response, expending the skill. Multiple ranks allowing more than one counter fire?

Careful Aim: Passive Skill. +1 Accuracy, +1 to crit, 3 ranks available

Poisoned Arrows: Passive Skill, Unit must be Umber. +2 Poison damage per round.

Shoot the Horses!: Active Skill. +3 Attack against units with mounts gives -2 move to a hit unit for its next turn.

Harassment: Active/Passive? Skill. May shoot then move, with any remaining movement.

Point Blank Shots: Active? Skill. If the Target is adjacent +3 Attack & Target is pushed back if it fails a resist.

Give them shade!: Active Skill. Expends the current turn for ALL friendly archery type units with the Volley Fire skill, each of these units fires once at ALL enemy units.

 

 

21,095 views 30 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ajax, reply 25
This is a good point. removing the ability to train and build simultaneously has led to champs being the only real option early on... wish they would revert this and allow for more units to be produced from the get go.

 
End of ajax's quote

Agreed.  The interesting nature of the guns-versus-butter question is made irrelevent when you can get your guns (champions) and your butter without sacrifice.

Decoupling troop production and city advancement is one way to promote the creation of units, but I fear it does so in an uninteresting way.  You'd essentially just set all of your cities to auto-build whichever unit made sense at the time.  It also eliminates the fundamental decision of determining which path your kingdom will walk (military, questing, or economy) because now you can do everything.

Instead, I would endorse military tech having a very strong impact on the viability of trained troops.  Similarly, Magic research would strongly impact champion performance.  You should, ideally, notice a huge difference in the quality of your champions when you choose to pursue strong magic research versus some other tree.  Same for regular troops and Military research.  Now, you're forced to make an interesting decision.  Do you go magic and build Sauron-esque champions, but, lacking civ techs, your towns have minimal growth options?  Do you go military and use your towns to mass-produce veteran soldiers equipped in the latest instruments of death?  Or do you go civ and build up power in more broad strokes, relying on quantity over quality in your defense?  That, to me, is the core decision in the game that is just flat-out missing right now.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Could someone explain how this champ is overpowered in any way:

She would make a crappy mage, only having water the dullest of the 6, and at 1 damage a time isn't a threat even to a dog!

How are you going to level her when the XP sharing comes into play?

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Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting malekith, reply 21
There's a giant unit design feature that is entirely player-facing (the AI doesn't use it).  It serves no purpose.  The cities that build these troops... they serve very little purpose.  The tech trees that improves the cities and the worthless troops... no purpose.  If there's no reason for a player to build troops, more than half the features in the game serve virtually no purpose.  Who cares what race you pick?  Diplomacy?  Sauron doesn't treat with his enemies.  When champions are always the easier path to victory, the game becomes a shadow of what it's designed to be.
End of malekith's quote

I couldn't agree more. I am afraid that developers at this point have already decided not to alter almost any game mechanic if not very simple ones, putting time only to balance the existing game (maybe rightly so). But to me and to what I read and see, making heroes more balanced and even more making troops more interesting seems an important piece to adjust - maybe without big changes, but to work on surely.

I have a thread with simple proposals to fix the balance Heroes vs Units here that you may want to look at (https://forums.elementalgame.com/417253)

Another here for more interesting Units and City Building that develops the idea of City Guilds (https://forums.elementalgame.com/416510)

I'd be very happy to head any comment on these and suggestions on implementability et cetera!

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting EviliroN, reply 13
THIS is what champs should be... all of them


End of EviliroN's quote

So... game is ready for release?

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting BeardyDan, reply 27
Could someone explain how this champ is overpowered in any way:

She would make a crappy mage, only having water the dullest of the 6, and at 1 damage a time isn't a threat even to a dog!

How are you going to level her when the XP sharing comes into play?
End of BeardyDan's quote

I think I'd stick her in a city with xp generating buildings and go path of the governor with her.  Hopefully that path will get flushed out a little more, and xp gains from stationed heroes isn't so meager in the future.