Stop messing with Champions!

Stop nerfing kitchen sinks, make bathtubs more useful!!

.. Champions need a reduction in ability, but regular units also need to be brought in line. Remember that the issue also has to do with how easily the champions kill the regular monsters, not just champions vs units. Changing just regular units means all monsters would also have to be adjusted, which is probably more work, since they would have to be tweaked on an individual basis.

And if anything is going to recieve the time and effort to be adjusted on an individual basis I want it to be champions!

I think that they are overpowered against a poor AI. If the AI was finished and/or we were playing multiplayer, I'd take more seriously the "Champions are totally overpowered".

The thing eventually nerfing yourself against the AI gets dull.

My standard for AI is kinda ridiculous: I expect it to compete with me on even grounds, without cheating from either side.

The GalCiv2 AI managed to do this (I had an easier time if I turned tech trading off because that system was super-annoying).  In terms of TBS games, I can't think of any other game that managed to do this, not even BTS.

My standards for FE are a little lower, since it's a fantasy game and those are harder then space games to do proper AI for.

That said, champions are a big part of what makes this game fun, and if anything, they need to be made more crazy, but mundane troops need to be able to hold their own.   I don't think champion/monster balance is out of whack, and that's fixable a lot more easily then champion/troop balance.

My personal preference is to buff troops, but make sure the tougher monsters are lethal vs troops (many of them already are), or implement one tweak to champions:

Champions can only damage one unit in a stack with one attack with melee or archery.

Magic can hit multiple units, and some abilities can hit multiple units like double strike (if it kills one on the first strike it hits another target with the second strike).   This would mean that champs couldn't steamroll troops without huge defense or huge initiative.

The 1st-turn fireball rampage is entirely AI-independent.

Also, roaming monsters cease to be a threat really quickly, and become a boring hassle around turn 100.

Biggest problem with champions is how easy they stack movement and initiative bonuses. You shouldn't be able to stack mount bonus with compass and boots, plus only some classes should get fast/impulsive talents. Secondly the game mage champion talents make tactical spells practically free and 150% more powerful.

Yeah...as others have said, champs need a nerf.

But it's not just that champs need a nerf...it's also that getting decent regular units takes much longer than getting powerful champs.  I can usually get my sov to "strong" in like the early game when regular units have, at most, leather.  By the time you get chain, your champs may already be "Deadly."

In addition, if you want units you have to STOP producing buildings in your cities which can set you back.  But leveling champs is essentially free, you just wander around the map and fight.

If units were a easier and quicker to get, we may see more of them on the field.  I would almost be in favor of allowing the player to train units and build buildings simultaneously.

I agree with Wintersong.

There is nothing wrong with a first turn fireball if the AI can blindside you with one too.

Roaming monsters remain a threat when you're stuck on a peninsula blocked off by two strong packs of spiders with only 2 level 4 champions. Had that happen last night. I had to design an armored spearmen unit in order to clear them. Left my champions in my capital because they were too squishy for the fight.

Try designing units with compasses, put 6 in an army and watch them move 8 square a turn. With movement trait and other movement modifiers you can probably get the stack to move even more squares. It is actually easier to stack movement on units at the moment.

I think the OP's point is very valid.  Powerful champions are fun!  They may be OP, but it just feels good to unleash magical hell on the unsuspecting hordes.  One of the problems with WoM is that they tried really hard to balance that game and ended up squeezing out all the interesting aspects of the game.

Creslin321's right to say that regular units take a lot of time to develop and heroes are much easier to make strong.  Part of this is the currently ridiculous cost of upgrading existing units.

I am confident that making heroes crappier isn't going to make the game better.  I guess my ideal would be to keep the nuke spells but make them harder to get (or make them scale).

I also like the idea of leveling units getting an attribute bonus.

I agree, Powerful champions are fun. What's needed is as BeadyDan suggested is giving combat units that level up combat skills traits.

Your archer unit gains a level and you can choose from one of several randomly selected combat skills traits such as for Archer Units: - Volley Fire, Careful Aim, Target Mounts, etc. This would give each combat unit more tactical options during battle and make battle more interesting (if the AI knows how to use these traits).

Mounted Units might have traits such as Charge (three levels) that gives the mounted unit +2 to attack per level if moved at least 2 tiles that turn, or Hit and Run (can attack and move, or move, attack, move), or Withdraw (Retreats 1 tile once, if a unit moves adjacent).

Nerf champions just a little bit ... buff normal troops just a little bit.  No drastic changes please.

I do agree that there is something fun and satisfying in having powerful OP champions.

Personally i like the idea of adding upkeep to Champs. That possibly goes up with the champ level. ''You know boss, i've been kicking butts alot lately, i really think i deserve a raise.''  

  You could still have those Champion stacks of doom but you would need a wealthy empire to support them. 

THIS is what champs should be... all of them

Looks like Sauron has +10 initiative and Maul.

Good thing Isildur and Gilgalad brought more than 7 groups of 9 troops

oh forgot to even reply to the post.  Yes, make troops more interesting/useful would be nice.  I'd be fine with the abilities being tied to equipment rather than leveling up, since that is doable without big system changes.

lol. 

I think with a good AI, mage heroes at least could be balanced just by reducing the ease of getting the tactical mana reduction traits.  Early on on in .77 it is fairly hard keeping them upright against the environment unless you find a good melee champ to go with them.  Then after a few key traits they become completely OP.  Which is still kinda fun.

I support this message. That being said, a means of making armies more varied/customizable(with meaningful choices) wouldn't be a bad thing.

If every champion is as powerful as Sauron, there's no point in building normal troops, and they may as well be removed from the game.  If they're removed from the game, who is Sauron going to send flying?

They dont need to be removed from the game, every Sauron needs cannon fodder to slaughter. I approve of Lord of the rings style heroes and reject entirely Heroes of Might and magic cloning.

Who's going to build this canon fodder, and why is it a good decision?

The AI will of course, maybe a human player wont but keep in mind this game seemed geared for PvE not PVP.

There's a giant unit design feature that is entirely player-facing (the AI doesn't use it).  It serves no purpose.  The cities that build these troops... they serve very little purpose.  The tech trees that improves the cities and the worthless troops... no purpose.  If there's no reason for a player to build troops, more than half the features in the game serve virtually no purpose.  Who cares what race you pick?  Diplomacy?  Sauron doesn't treat with his enemies.  When champions are always the easier path to victory, the game becomes a shadow of what it's designed to be.

EDIT: You can have Sauron, but he comes at a price.  You have to forego experience fo the rest of your champions as he sucks it all up.  He can only be in one (maybe two) places at one time, meaning you wil have weeknesses in your empire's defense (but don't worry, I'm sure Shelob will keep those pesky hobbits out of your back yard).  Sauron should be possible, but he needs to be special.  If every champion is Sauron, and there's no reason to make anything but champions.  Sauron's not that special anymore.

This is too true!

Indeed it is! But it is also true that crazy OP champions are cool. This is why i support the idea of having Upkeep attached to champs, this way you need to have a good economy to support them.

If they don't desert if gildar goes negative, then it doesn't matter how much their upkeep is, if you've already hired four or five of them.  They could still wipe the map.

This is a good point. removing the ability to train and build simultaneously has led to champs being the only real option early on... wish they would revert this and allow for more units to be produced from the get go.