[Balance/Heroes/Spells] Heroes cannot learn new Magic paths?

from Elemental Forums

I've realized that when leveling a hero, if that hero doesn't start with a Magic school, it apparently cannot ever learn a new school?

This... kind of sucks actually. While I can see some sort of argument for limiting access to all schools for every hero, it seems very odd to have a level 20 Path of the Mage hero with only one spell school.

More critically, because there is currently no means to 'generate' new Heroes, if you end up with bad luck from the random map generator and the enemy AI kills off other heroes of your faction, you may only get a few heroes near you with limited spell schools, sharply limiting your access to magic.

It also unduly penalizes you due to the Shard system, because you may end up with few or no Shards for the heroes you can acquire.

As an example, in my last game, my only 'mage' hero, had Air magic and nothing else - and I had 1 Air Shard all game, 6 water, 3 earth, 3 fire, 2 life :P (I had zero heroes, mage or no, with Water magic naturally)

I've criticized the hero recruiting system before, but this is yet another area it can screw you over.

Suggestions:

1) Heroes can acquire new Magic schools.

  • Path of the Mage characters automatically earn 1-2 new schools
  • Higher level quests can reward them
  • Certain powerful items can unlock them
  • Magic tech research can unlock them

2) Heroes can be recruited by means other than on-map recruitment.

  • Higher level structures acquired via Research
  • Periodically offer their services based on your Prestige or simply over time
  • Have a chance to show up if you have less than X heroes, where X is based on the size of the map or the number of heroes enemy empires possess
  • Heroes 'regenerate' on the world map, occasionally showing up to be recruited

It's not any fun to play a game heavily based on magic and then be locked out of that magic due to the current leveling/hero mechanics.

2,850 views 5 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I like this idea very much

Path of the Mage characters automatically earn 1-2 new schools
End of quote

although I would just give them the chance of learning a new school when they level-up. No freebie. PS. That idea is so good, I will bring it to the game in a mod unless it is incorporated into the game by the devs. It really is brilliant, and gives a lot of needed viability to the mage path. I might complicate it slightly though. I might limit what you can learn depending on shards your faction control. No fire shard? You won't be able to learn level 1 fire magic.

 

However, please note that there are many spells available that do not require schools of magic to cast. These can come from techs, goodiehuts and quests.

 

One thing that is important is that not every way to play the game has the same validity every time you play it. You are SUPPOSED to be shaped by the starting conditions for your faction. No metal within 20 tiles in any direction? Then you should not focus your efforts in producing high-armor units. No shards? Better make melee champions. Now, I'm not saying this system is perfectly balanced in every conceivable way. It's not. But the fact is, you got a shitty draw with magic, but you still tried to "go for it". Maybe in that game it just wasn't your best option.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't mind random, but being potentially screwed out of the majority of magic due to a bad hero draw is just awful.

It removes an entire chunk of the game as a viable option, and not just any chunk, Magic, which is, you know, kind of a big part of the game.

I also don't mind being limited to whatever your Sovereign starts with, as long as you have a chance to progress later in the game - there's nothing wrong with having a cost associated with it, that's why I mentioned research, leveling, questing, whatever - but right now, Heroes are a finite resource on the map, so you can end up in a situation where you have NO choice in the matter.

edit: More random thoughts: I'd also be fine with 'untrained' heroes being unable to progress past rank 2/3/4 without additional training/investment/whatever. So you might have a hero who has natural Fire magic aptitude and can train up to Rank 5 via leveling, but if you teach him Air magic, he can only go up to 2/3/4 naturally without additional research or training. You could also make opposed elements (air/earth, fire/water) automatically cap at 3 if learned by a hero with natural talent in the opposed school.

Sins of a Solar Empire II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

Why not just have the level 1 magic skills come up as “rare” level up possibilities.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

No, rare isn't that rare.  I'd rather you can choose one Path only, and only Path of the Mage can learn new magic skills, and then only if your side has a magic shard of that type.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting StevenAus, reply 4
No, rare isn't that rare.  I'd rather you can choose one Path only, and only Path of the Mage can learn new magic skills, and then only if your side has a magic shard of that type.
End of StevenAus's quote

Tying the evolution to shards available would be fine too, even making it proportional to the # of shards you have, so that eg, in my case that game, my mage probably would have gained Water aptitude via leveling eventually.

Alternately there could be ritual spells to infuse a hero, OR, as a drastic option, draining a shard of a mana/turn to imbue a hero with a new spell school (hey, an Imbue Champion that doesn't suck :P)