pros and cons of "censorship"

I missed the fun but heard what happened.

What would happen if everyone just started logging on fakes to stir up controversy? Would that be a good thing? I say NO.

No I'm not saying that, but if ppl are afraid to post as themselves to express themselves you can bet more and more ppl "will" be taking on fake names here at wincustomize.com and that is not the goal right? ppl should be able to be themselves.
I believe that Tom Cruise posted as that cuz he was "afraid to post as himself"...

and he did not post anything bad, he just stated an opinion and apparently was afraid to post under his true name,
oh well, I don't know I just am stating a feeling, nothing more... you can delete it if you wish Brad...

I agree. I can't believe that almost the entire thread was deleted because of an opinion of one user. Tis sad times we live in.

We don't delete posts arbitrarily or simply because we don't agree with someone. Otherwise we'd have wiped out quite a number of posts.

What we don't like, and I speak generally here as I've spoken at length to other message board admins over the years over this delicate issue is what is called user spoofing.

That is where someone creates a new persona (a fake user) in order to post inflammatory remarks without the baggage of it affecting the person's "real" reputation. When I'm getting beat up for whatever triviality of the day on this message board is, I could easly just create a half dozen new personas and bash back. But instead, I take my beating and try to pose a reasoned response as "Frogboy", a handle I've invested some years of work into.

The second issue that message board admins hate dealing with are people who purposely derail a topic.

If "Tom Cruise", for instance, had posted a question as a new topic, we would have ignored the fact he's a fake user. But when he also hijacked a Litestep question and turned it into yet another "let's bash WinCustomize" thread, that exceeded our threshold of pain.

A "real" user might get a moderator warning for hijacking a thread, but a fake user is already on thin ice to begin with.

And frankly, we are tired of getting bashed. We honeslty wish that the users who think that we're a bad site or whatever would take their energies elsewhere. There's nothing particularly enjoyable about reading the message board on a Saturday evening between compiles reading a bunch of flames over what amounts to trivialities and false accusations. I particularly get annoyed reading flames trying to claim that WinCustomize is some sort of high minded business venture. It's a labor of love that we're TRYING to keep from harming our jobs.

Some people want a Hoverdesk section? Okay, maybe we should have a vote and then have a vote over which Stardock employee we should lay off due to increased site costs ("theme" sections like HVD/DX/Talisman/etc. use more bandwidth than skin sections) and the loss in sales. Maybe we could put pictures of perspective employees to lay off and how many kids they have. Sorry folks, but if the decision is between satisfying whiney users (not you Doreen) championing some mystical "Community" and protecting the jobs of real people with families, guess which I'm going to choose?

So ultimately, those users (again, not your Doreen) who think that we're evil or whatever should just go somewhere else. Instead of trying to force their view on the world on us, they should get off their rear ends and build something themselves. I think some people forget that the reason this site exists to begin with is because "The community" was losing major skin sites at a rapid pace and skin authors (like me, as some people keep forgetting, I've been actively creating UIs since 1995) need a place to upload their stuff that they can count on. The best thing those people can do is go create a new skin site and quit trying to shove their views down our throats. We have our own ideas on how skin sites should be done.

Anyway, in what cases would we censor?

1) Excessive profanity
2) Personal attacks (we won't let outright flame wars stay)

The "Tom Cruise" issue was a special case. Now, on a NORMAL message board it's considered extremely uncool to logon fake users to grind their axe. When they're caught, they're usually banned (check out ezboards, delphi boards, moderated Usenet, etc.). If they then create ANOTHER fake user, logon and continue then we have to escalate things.

Someone asked a question about Litestep. Fake user Tom Cruise comes in and hijacks the thread turning it into a "bash WinCustomize" thread. We exile Tom Cruise but we LEAVE the posts there (i.e. no censorship yet). Tom Cruise creates new account, jumps on and continues. We escalate it up and delete the off topic posts in that thread.

If TomCruise had created his own topic, we would have let it stay. Wrecking someone else's is problematic.

BS!

Brad, I think you should take another vacation, and not worry your self about what others think.

at slashdot he would have gotten moderated down to a -1, and no-one ever would have known... pretty machiavellian, in some respects. many sites outright ban peoples' ip.

On Kur5hin they would have probably IP banned him. They don't go for that crap on Ars Technica either. It aint cool to crap on the host if you're a spoofer. Particularly if you're doing your crapping in somebody elses thread. The very fact that it's causing a ruckus shows how screwed up the so called "community" is. Folks, this [[SHOULD]] be a no-brainer here.

Tandis, did you even see the comment that started this whole thing? It was nothing. A mere opinion. It wasn't a flame or a "hijack" as Frogboy calls it. Nobody was "crapped" on. That's the real issue here. That's why people are upset. When some moron comes on and starts a thread asking for a serial number to DesktopX, thats worthy of banishment. But when a user makes one comment saying that Wincutsomize wouldn't tolerate a competeing app being listed here is not worthy of banishment. I would tell you to go back and read the thread again, but it's been censored, so I can't do that. All in all, this sucks.

fake users suck. if you don't got the balls to say what you think as you are, then you shouldn't post.

If you have to worry about getting a real username with skins attached exiled by vindictive admins for saying something they don't like, I'd say they are the ones with no balls. . . not that this has happened, but a fake user is insurance concerning that.

Ah guilty before proven innocent. I see.

No, posting anonymously is understandable in the present context. Anonymous voting exists because nobody wants to pay the concequences of not being the same opinion as somebody else.
Think about this, what if TomCruise was Jafo, or Migellito for exemple (No, I know it wasn't, but just for the sake of argument). What if he would have posted that comment under his real identity? Now the consequences could have been really bad for him, therefore justifying having to use a pseudonym to express his views.
Of course, a website is a private property, and its owners have the right to promote or ban anybody they want. So I am really just rasing my hand in Doreen's camp, although I very well know it doesn't count.

I have to agree with Doreen too. I know that using an alias isn't too ethical, and you have every right to ban whoever you want for saying whatever you don't like..

But that's just it. You can say what you like, but it smells like he was banned because he said something Wincusto didn't like. That seems like censorship, and I can't be the only one who doesn't like it.

If you're looking to cut bandwidth costs, censorship could be your solution. If you openly begin to censor, then people will openly move to another site.

/me makes the long trek to the top of the stairs.
/me tries to remember his name.

Lurker Mode: OFF

Sarcasm Mode: ON

Happy Birthday!!!! Has this site really been online for 6 months now, and approaching middle age it seems like just yesterday all of this was hashed out in long long threads. Since I just won the Power Ball Lottery (or at least I did two minutes before I woke up this morning), I will be opening up my own skinning site with every skin every made and every program represented even the ones that NO One makes skins for. I’ll have a WinDVD section and a Copernic section. Hell I’ll even have a ICQPlus section just for giggles, and let every Photo Skin in and Moderate nothing. What do I care I just won 50 Billion dollars, I can squander as much bandwidth as I want, hell I’ll make the site entirely Flash and have links to Mirror sites each optimized for a different browser. I’ll have the mother of all message boards, I’ll even pay some high school kid to write Bots to keep threads going even when they should have died on their own.

Sarcasm Mode: OFF

Opinion Mode: ON

Personnel Opinion, if there are 50 distinct people who post REGUARLY on this board I’ll be surprised, and not one of them has ever been Exiled for speaking an Opinion, and there have been a lot of Opinions. All four corners of the globe are represented here, just in that 50, and are all here for one reason, the LOVE of skins. Never has anyone been Exiled for asking about ANY skinning program, and HELP has been given EVERY time that it has been asked. Each person here has a favorite program and believes that it is the best on the planet and that the rest of us are nuts for not loving it. That all being said, there are lots of skin sites around, no the one size fits all smorgasbord of Skinz.org has left us and will never be back and it’s loss will be felt for a long time to come. So if you don’t like this House that Brad, Alex, and T-Man built no one is stopping anyone at Gun point from checking out two sites at once or three or four.

I will support this site with my wallet every time, why because the last thing I want to see is this house fall like Skinz did. I would have supported Skinz the same way if there had been a chance, but that is a different thread. I bought the WinCusto CD, I will buy a T-Shirt, I will buy a Coffee Mug, heck I’ll even buy one for Crae if he wants one, and if they use Alex’s Lizard Logo I’ll buy an Izod.

That all being said, having a second handle or a third as a running joke I don’t think that a single word would have been said since everyone would have know it was a joke, not to mention that everyone would probably know who it was. Having a second handle for no other purpose than causing hate and discontent is just plain childish and chicken, like I said at the start NO ONE has ever been exiled for saying what they thought in public. So that is my 2 cents and how I feel, please feel free to flame me if you so desire, my E-Mail is in my profile, and it is real, as is my Name if I can ever remember what it is.

Opinion Mode: OFF

Lurker Mode: ON

/me goes back to the basement, coffee must get coffee……

To the community, please do not force a hoverdesk section. I have a wife and two kids and do not wish to be laid off! I enjoy working on WinCustomize and wish to continue.

Ok, enough sarcasm. I'm going to go and get a fake passport, go over to some other country and kill someone else under someone else's name and make it public. But I don't want to ruin my good reputation so thats why I am going to use a false identity.

Alright, so I lied about the sarcasm. I can't believe that some of you would support a person who uses a false identity to bash other people. Get real, how is that right? I will take censorship over that view any day.

Tom Cruise, I dare you to come forth and reveal your true identity. (I bet he/she doesnt)

I'm sorry Brad
I did not mean to make things harder on you and this site, that was not why I posted that.
(you said it was okay to start another thread in the thread that you censored if it bothered anyone so I just simply reacted before thinking as usual)

cuz it bothered me that I seen not only the person you aimed at censoring but also the other comments made by innocent members posting along in that thread, and then the thread was totally "rebirthed a different breed"
(however I was not in that thread at all and I don't even know why it bothered me)
but "it just came out"... again sorry

(I need to learn to censor my own self)

/me goes off to take a break for awhile

Cut & Paste from another thread.......

If I was Brad Wardell, and anyone spoke to me the way some of you speak to him, I would pull the plug on this site in a breath! If I owned this site, it would look like the concept page that T-Man made. I think Brad shows great restraint keeping this site as it is.

Hegramet: I don't know who you are, and I don't really care, just don't come around here stinking up MY message board with your petty jealousies. Yes, your jealousy is so evident it's embarrasing. If you don't like it, just don't come here. If you are into desktop customization, this is still the best place to hang out.
Brad, I hope you DON'T pull the plug! some of us are grateful for the site you have provided. You must have the patience of a saint to put up with the whinging, whining idiots who attack you on a regular basis.
Now, grow up, you whiners, this is a website, not a government.
I have truly never heard such bullshit as complaining about a websites mission statement!!
I come to this message board for help when I need it, and to offer help where I can. I don't want to read this political crap that some of you spout. I'll say it again: IT'S A WEBSITE, FOR GOD'S SAKE!!!, just take some nice skins for your computer and shut the hell up.
Thank you.

Doreen: I am surprised to see you start a thread like this when you are an admin on another site.(Lots of Skins). If Chaz got the kind of grief that Brad gets here, I'm willing to bet you would pull the thread. So please don't jeapordise this site by stirring up unrest, especially as you don't call this site home. Remember how you felt when Skinz went down?, well that's how I will feel if Brad pulls this site off.
I'm saddened that I am probably going to make enemies of people I have respected in the past, but until you all come to your senses and remember that this is a WEBSITE, I will continue to berate you all for being pathetic and unrealistic.

listen to grog. Has any actual user ever been banned from this site for speaking their minds in the entire history of this site? answer: no. i am so sick of the elitist holier than thou attitude of some people around here. i remember bakerstreet writing a long personal insult post at frogboy on this very forum and was he banned? no. was he censored? no. so give the rest of a us a break with the claims that this site is somehow censorship central.

Don't they delete bad skins, wallpaper and other stuff all the time? How is this any different?

I just love how a legitimate concern being voiced causes a war. Doreen voiced a concern. In a free-thinking society, that concern would be discussed, opinions voiced, people would agree or disagree...perhaps some constructive changes would happen... but that would be it.

Instead, what do we have here? Just because you voice a concern or point out a potential problem doesn't make you anti-Wincusto. In fact, doesn't it make you for it? I wouldn't criticize the site unless I wanted it to do well.

Doreen posted. FB responded with an exhaustingly long explanation that seemed reasonable to me. Whats the reverse? if you don't agree with Doreen and you you're causing a war? What constructive changes should happen? Spoofs everywhere taking pot shots at each other? Its pretty silly that anyone would argue the posting rights of a spoofer.

Why is it silly? Spoofing is fine as long as the anonymity isn't abused. And it isn't. . . there aren't mass flamewars between spoofers, the tomcruise fellow wasn't flaming, I read his post. . .his statement, though a bit inflamitory, was accurate and polite.

His post was: 1) Totally off topic 2) It was inflammatory, and 3) It was incorrect.

Bottom line, if you're a fake user, you're walking on thin ice. If people think that fake users are just fine to use, then they're free to go to some other website.

When I started with BBSes, we coudln't evne post until we were validated. Validation required a phone call from the Sysop of the BBS. So hearing someone complain because we're not letting fake users hijack other people's posts to take pot shots at the site seems absurd to us old timers.

We're pretty happy with how the website is going. It's not going to go away and we're not going to make changes under duress. We are perfectly happy with the idea that people who think that this site is evil or wrong or whatever can go find other sites.

I am so fairly bothered as to how little some people are willing to put forth themselves. More people need to be like Chaz. Chaz likes skinning and he has managed to put up a pretty good skin website on his parent's cable modem. So if Chaz can do that, why can't you Hegramet? Anyone who wants to try to enforce their particular world view on us should just leave and start their own site.

We can argue forever about petty details on skin sites, but if you really want to help, start your own website.

The worse of all is we don't even know if there are spoof users or not. For all I know Frank Leon could be an alter ego for Frogboy since they're always of the same opinion but Frank is always much more agressive (don't laugh but I've been wondering about that fact for a while now)... Just as Craeonics could be Doreen's rebel side... In this virtual world, we don't know who people really are...