Never thought about actually making Reg faster than everyone else.  That's not a terrible idea, since faster in Demigod doesn't equal unlimited kiting ability due to firing animation time (he would have to be like 20% faster to be able to kite for more than 2 or 3 shots.).

That wouldn't solve the complaint I keep seeing about his inability to stand and fight on a flag, interrupt locks, etc but seriously, don't play Reg if you want to be able to do that (i.e. don't play Reg in 2v2).  It's perfectly possible to make a DG viable, even lethal in 3v3+ without being able to directly face off against a tank-type DG.

This method will probably get something done, although I'm of the (probably unpopular) opinion that some items/demigods/etc are beyond the help of simple 1 or 2 number stat tweaks, and that there are some fundamental imbalances in the base game that need to be altered before you can address specific item/DG imbalances (e.g. the relationship between health, armor, and ability damage, the excessive power of sigils and cap locks, etc).

Without changing these underlying issues, you'll never make the game more attractive to new players, and will be hard-pressed to make weak items and demigods viable as anything other than pale copies of the powerful ones.

Although I am on the side of, all DGs need an interrupt...Ultimately in retrospect, Occ was overpowered with blastoff interrupt, and QoT doesn't really have a viable skill to attach an interrupt to... so she should work more like Occ, viable without an interrupt.

Most of this stuff has been beat to death in Crazy Town. Lots of changes in that mod, but it really was just an experiment to try some concepts out and see which of them should be made into real changes. So here are the best for the topic on hand.

2 changes to Reg that make him 100% more awesome

1) Add Interrupt to application of MoTB... (interrupt on application, not on trigger by skill use)
2) Add Deadeye and Impedence Bolt to Snipe Procs- If the game goes that long, these 2 are highly desirable effects on snipe that give termendous value to Reg. (snipe stuns by surprise from the mist [flag relock defense], and hurts you badly on mana usage in cross lane fights)

3 QoT Changes to make her more forgiving for non-1337 players, though not really increasing her power much.
1) Lowering Shield cost to heal cost is very useful.
2) Increasing shield duration by 10 seconds per level is also very useful simply by utility. (30,40,50,60 seconds)
3) Reducing explosion timer on Mulch is also very useful, so you can actually damage things intentionally while healing.

Initial Changes to DA- He still blows, but ultimately his problem is not his skills, they are actually quite good.
1) Base Speed 6.3: This actually goes quite a long ways for DA, allowing DA to flee or chase when appropriate. At 6.0, you need to be psychic to know if you need more speed to evade or chase an enemy based on their items, as the situations arise.
2) Remove Knocks in the air on Warp Area 3... this causes DA to hit dead flying targets and wastes hops. Just make it scale in hits and damage at level 3.

I'd also add another topic to this post: Really Minor Tweaks to Really Bad Favor items, that might find a niche. (I'd make a rule that you can't mess with favor item stats to keep things from going overboard, just how they get used)

1) Blood Soaked Wand = 1 second cast: The real bad problem with this item is the 2 second cast for what you get. Vial gives you much more life, so you have a bit of discretion on when to use it.
2) Amulet of Teleportation = Cooldown same as TP scoll. Your early lower power is offset by stronger later game (Orb of Defiance) + mobility and a few TPs worth of gold.
3) EoM: Reduce Cooldown to 30 so it's like a specialized magus wand for assassins- Ultimately DA benefits the most from this item... so count this as a DA buff.

One other thing
QoT Interrupt Observations in Crazy Town mod
Spike Wave is a really bad skill for interrupt: It is too slow on travel and reload. Basically, if QoT is close enough to use it to interrupt something on purpose, she is out of position. Otherwise you can see it coming a mile away and jig your skill/item.

If you want Spike Wave to be good enough to consider taking level 2 and 3 and at the same time greatly increase QoT's power to around Occ levels, it must be because of damage output.
Damage 400,650,900
Also reduce Wave III cooldown timer to normal... it is bizzare that the cooldown timer is increased.

I would say that this + the 3 above puts QoT in the same power bracket as Occ, without adding an interrupt. Why? With this AoE damage, the ground Spike / Wave combo will tear a new one in supporting idols and creeps much like Occ can do. You will see that you are killing healing idols alot, like Occ can, which in an invaluable attribute to be able to contribute to a fight.

Oc is a damage machine.  You fix his useless/broken skills, and he'll be doing just fine without an interrupt.

Your own LOP-QoT mod added an interrupt to spike wave, and I think that worked out fine.  SW is a lot like Boulder Roll - great up close, potentially hits multiple targets, but has a narrow area of effect and is easily dodged at range.  I have much less of a issue with giving QoT a fast-cast interrupt than I do Reg.

This is bad for a variety of reasons, one of those being excessive homogeneity, another being too much functionality on one skill, but the biggest is that you could no longer ninja MotB onto a dude that's just about finished casting something with the intent of making it detonate instantly.  So you gain an interrupt, but lose the ability to reliably use MotB's damage. 

Nevermind that combining this with Deadeye on Snipe (which I like) gives Reg THREE full-on interrupts.  Even if one of them is slow, and one of them is random, that's waaaaaay too much for any one demigod, especially one that's already decent at screwing with ability use.

Don't really have any problem any of this, but other than shield cost, I wouldn't call any of it urgently or desperately needed.  If we're talking about pushing through a small handful of changes, I'd vote for int on SW and/or lowered shield cost.

1) I think everyone is in agreement about his speed.  6.0 just makes no sense.

2) I was not aware this happened.  That means the targeting routine for this skill blows, and needs to be fixed in the UberFix.  Two ways to do this:
A. Save his original position upon activation, and make him re-check for a new target within radius after every hop.
B. Grab ALL targetable units in range upon activation, and continue looping through them until 4/8 valid, living targets have been hit.

Either way should work fine.  A. will use more CPU time (still hopefully negligible) but be more responsive to new units entering the WA radius, resulting in fewer early ends due to a lack of targets when more are moving in.

I also disagree that his skills are 'quite good.'  WA II/III are good, Spine is great, but his passives are awful, especially with the 40% evasion cap.  Everyone else's passives give at least ~6-7% of total benefit per level, typically split between two skills.  Bumping his passives to something like 7/14/20 (from 5/10/15) and his crit to 15/25/37/50 for +7.5-25% average damage (from 10/20/30/40 for +5-20% average damage) would make them much more worthwhile.

His teleport abilities are lacking in range and power as well.  WS is crap until you get the L15 modifier, where it suddenly becomes amazing.  I'd rather see that power spread out over the rest of its levels so it's actually usable prior to level 15.  Swap has the same mediocre range.

Favor items are going to be a huge can of worms, since 90% of them go totally unused for very good reasons.  If we're not going to nerf / shift BotF's stats, then I'm gonna say don't bother, because BotF is still gonna be the number one choice for the vast majority of builds.

Counter ninja strike!

Reg
Please compare MoTB to other ranged instant interrupts (pen and deep freeze). MoTB does not have too much functionality built into one skill, and it is a variation on a theme.

Ultimately, if you want to make one really great improvement to Reg, it is interrupt on MOTB. It will allow Reg a chance to avoid damage, or block an escape / item.

QoT

1) Wave
If you put an interrupt on Spike Wave, you really haven't improved QoT at high levels of play for the reason I listed. (easy to Jig) You've also built a trap for normal players (get too close as QoT in order to interrupt)
Boulder roll stuns for a long time, so it is not a similar comparison.

There is still no reason to take more then 1 level in Wave.

Damage + Interrupt is too much.

Want to fix this easily and make QoT good like Occ without all sorts of weird and unforseeable changes? Simply add the damage to wave. Done and good. (and add the normal cooldown to Wave III)

2) Shield Cost

Not mitigated by armor, higher cost further skews the inefficiency.
One of QoT's biggest weakness to be good with her is how to get a handle on her mana management. Every little bit does make a difference.

3) Shield length
Longer length = less form switching / more utility when casting and sending off an ally DG.

Goes a long way

DA
Sorry for not being specific, I was talking about the skills people use to play DA, they are great (Spine, Warp Strike, Speed, Swap). There is an abundance of skills on other DGs that are not taken as well. It's not just DA and I didn't want to suddenly start talking about a dozen skills, in a more focused thread.

I think of it this way. DA's frame is wrong for his skills. He is an evasive damage dealer that cannot evade taking damage...

Ultimately he needs to be able to evade damage, not move towards more overlap with UB.

Start with 6.3 speed and a reason to follow the warp area path. 12 hits = great way to evade damage from bursts. Even if you fix knock in the air, that is still a terrible lone ability for a level 15 skill. It would be better to have more damage and hits for the evasion problem.

These would make a pretty good starting place to see where other problems lay with DA. (hence what I said, he still blows, but the changes go a long way)

Thanks for reading and commenting.

QoT:

If QoT players really don't use SW II+ and would rather have more damage on SW than an interrupt, then whatever.  I don't play QoT very often, and I get crushed when I do, so the only thing I have a strong opinion on is the shield cost (which is def. too high).  I'd like to hear more QoT-player opinions on this.

Reg:

MotB shares little in common with Penitence right now, except range, and max damage at max level.  It's also a higher-level skill, but takes fewer points to max out.  Giving it an interrupt would pretty much make it Penitence Jr, which ain't good.

DA:

WA is already a good skill path.  The only drawback it has is a stupid third upgrade (that should be part of its basic functionality) and a high mana cost.  4 seconds of invulnerability is PLENTY.  It does not need 12 hits if it's doing 500+ damage per hit, AND knockback.  Damage also cannot be high at I, because it's a low-level skill that already offers 1.6s of invuln, albeit at high mana cost.

Currently:

250/500/500 per hit, 4/8/8 hits, mana cost 700/1000/1000, total invuln time 1.6/3.2/3.2

Proposal:

Metadamage at all levels

300/500/700 per hit, 6/8/10 hits, mana cost 700/1000/1300, total invuln time 2.4/3.2/4.0

This boosts I's early-game anti-creep capabilities significantly, without making it super-effective against demigods, or radically increasing invuln time.  II becomes exactly what II+Forceful is now, so still a net boost.  III is more expensive, but gives a bit more invuln time and is moderately more effective against metadamage-immune targets.

Combined with re-targeting every hop, this would allow targets to both enter and leave the area of effect, simultaneously making the skill fail less often against creeps, but miss smart enemy Demigods more often.

I did a significant comparison against Pent and MotB. MotB is a pretty damn amazing skill, even when compared with Pent, which is also an amazing skill. Currently the only thing that MotB is weak with is its long cooldown.

LOL

The knockback "feature" of the third upgrade in warp area is terrible. Not only do you not get gold or XP from the creeps you kill with the knockback (unless uberfixed), DA will actually waste attacks on his knockbacked creeps.

We just discussed this.  Neither of those things are necessarily an issue if we're talking about modding these skills, and yes knockback damage credit is fixed in the UberFix.  It's VERY fixed, in that you get a full share of credit for a knockback kill even if the creep had 1hp left.  I could slightly 'unfix' this, but I think it's pretty much fine the way it is.

Fixing WA's targeting would be a core aspect of balancing it.  You need to be able to run away from a WAing DA.  Right now, you can't do that - he tags you if you start in his area of effect, and warps to you no matter where you are (even at your health stone after a teleport, I believe).  This is both dumb and hard to balance well/

heh... lord orion back - been a bit.  WB!

The problem with Spike wave III is the Cooldown increase and Mana cost, fix those please.

To all those complaining about interrupt on MotB, and comparing it to Penitence, could you please, please check your facts? How does 20 secs CD (MotB) compare to 7 secs CD (penitence)? How does a spammable, (mostly) unavoidable and instant interrupt and damage "nuke" as Penitence compare to MotB, easily avoidable-cleared by Heal, Shield, Brain Storm, Mist, etc...?

Please, you're making the little boys in those of us who love Regulus cry

P.S: Warp Area hitting 6/8/10 targets with 2,4/3,2/4 secs invulnerability sounds good, damage should be 350/500/650 imho, though.

Thankfully, you use Staff of Renewel on Regulus and Cataract is the only map that exists. 

Keep in mind that it's a level 5, 10, 15 skill.  350x6 (2100) damage plus 2.4s of invuln is a lot for a level 5 skill with one point invested.  1800 damage is already quite a lot.

Re: Reg, it would be pretty silly to have an interrupt on MotB and then none on Snipe (at the top of whose tree the current interrupt resides, however terrible it may be).  There would then be zero reason to ever choose Snipe or Deadeye, and MotB would be an absolutely required skill-- as though it's not already, I know.

And if you do both, 2.5 interrupts is, as already mentioned, a lot for one character, even a weak one.  So if we're back to having to choose, I'd still rather see Deadeye/Snipe be improved (chance and duration to 5%/0.5s from 3%/0.3s, 0.5 or 1s stun on Snipe) than MotB turned into Penitence with a longer cooldown and a heavier snare.

Lowered Snipe cast time at higher levels is another thing to consider in conjunction with added Deadeye stun.

An interupt on Snipe would be epic. It would make it a useful throughout the game as it is not really worth much late game and the cast time of 1.5 would make it a hard skill to master. It would be a big improvment on reg currently though.

QoT-related:

In general, I agree with Lord-Orion's analysis. SW is a bit problematic skill to have an interrupt attached to, mainly due to its low ProjectileVelocity parameter.

Increasing BS duration looks like an appealing proposal to me. No big shakes, but utility-wise, it could be great.

Please note QoT actually has two cost:efficiency aberrations that should be fixed. The first one, as stated, is the whopping +50% cooldown increase SW II -> SW III. The second one is that GS I and II both cost 500 mana.

Technically Summon Shamblers II and III both cost the same amount of mana as well, but that's intended, I think. 

Technically Summon Shamblers II and III both cost the same amount of mana as well, but that's intended, I think. 

Indeed. I've always interpreted it as mana cost per Shambler summoned, and it makes perfect sense. Since SS II and III both summon 2 Shamblers, the cost remains the same. In GS I/II case, that's just a weird aberration, no sound logic here.

OK, I am going to narrow my thoughts, and provide a mod for anyone who is interested as a demonstration to try.

Download Mod

Themes

Reg: Interrupt and More Skill Utility
QoT: More Skill Damage Output to make her more comparable to Occ
DA: More Chase/Escape Utility

Specific Changes

Reg

1: Interrupt added to mark of the betrayer
How it works:
a- When you apply the mark, the target is interrupted from it's current action.
b- The mark is then applied. The next time the enemy uses a skill or item, the mark triggers as normal.

Note: The mark trigger effect does not go off if you cast it on an enemy in the middle of an action, because that action is interrupted first.

2: DeadEye and ImpedanceBolt affects triggered on snipe once you gain the appropriate skill achievement. (like track does)

QoT

1: Dammage increase to Spike Wave and Spike Wave 3 reduced to normal 10 second cooldown
Level 1 = 400
Level 2 = 650
Level 3 = 900

2: Mulch Explosion Timer reduced from 2 seconds to 0.5 seconds

DA

1: Base Speed 6.3

2: Add innate snare protection synergy to Demon Speed and Elusiveness skills:
Basically, if you have the Speed skill level matched with Elusive skill level, that boost is protected against snaring.

eg: You Have speed 3 (15%) and Elusive 2, 2 Levels of speed are protected against snaring
(speed can be reduced by 5% out of your +15%)

Awesome Code for this by the incredible Miriyaki

Hey dude don't replace whole files.  You just broke half of the Uberfix right there.

I'm amused that LO is making changes that he argued me out of putting into the QOTLOP mod.

Also, I'd suggest reviewing some of the previous QoT topics, a lot of this seems very familiar.

hehe... we'll its just nice to see orion and ptarth back for a bit anyway

Heh, I think we've argued for everything possible on QoT, now its just a matter of mixing up permutations.

Replace? Hah... you didn't look in the DA file obviously... it is a whole file + a copy paste hook to your elusive / speed synergy.

Lazy always wins.

Note: Apparently I did the impedance bolt / deadeye activate on snipe wrong in the mod file.

If people actually want mod code to test some of these things, I can whip it up pretty quickly.  I've got a ton of balance-type code laying around already, and tweaking ability damages and such is as easy as one line.

I'm not going to just compile it and push it out there myself, because I'm not really getting a strong feeling that anything is really being considered beyond 'add interrupt to everything'.  Tough crowd.

hehe... I still think its really just me that wants interrupts on all dgs. 

At first I thought the same thing, and really really wanted an interrupt on QoT... but after trying to make QoT work with an interrupt and ultimately coming up short, I realized the problem is not as bad for generals.

Basically they can manage as long as they have other ways to play

eg: Viable minion builds for Occ, QoT and Sedna so they can raise hell like Oak, that would compensate for lack of an interrupt...
Why? Sure you can pop a potion or TP out, but ultimately it doesn't help you when my strategy is an unrelenting assault on your towers instead of on you.

Or / Additionally
Better burst for QoT so she functions more like Occ can (because Occ does not struggle nearly as much as her or Reg without an interrupt)

There is no arguing of the nasty affects on Ground Spike and Spike Wave... but really a 625 (spike IV) + 500 (Wave II) damage burst is low, and lowering the mana cost doesn't help as much as increasing her burst potential.

As I suggested, 650 for Wave II would go a long way for allowing her to crush supporting creeps / idols once they are upgraded.

625 + 650 puts her more in the ZAP sweet spot like Occ can do when he single jumps onto a blob of targets and lightning blasts.

Basically, if QoT didn't suck so much in her other areas too, she wouldn't be as disadvantaged for not having an interrupt.

However, For certain Reg needs an interrupt. As an assassin, he really has no other game style to fall back on other then fighting other DGs.

My Opinion: Mark has to be the delivery system, so he can block telegraphed skills. Being able to shut down the opening spit would do wonders for a good Reg.

I thought about mines like you suggested, and that would really only be useful for a counter to a long cast... Reg really needs alot more than that.

The other problem with interrupt mines... when you are kiting them towards a mine field. They step on the first one and get stopped dead in their tracks, and easily turn around in the other direction to avoid the field.

As a Reg with interrupt mark, nothing is more satisfying then rattling an enemy by interrupting one of their actions, and then watching them trigger the mark right after in frustration.

Completely agree re: minion builds.

In general (no pun intended) there is a huge gulf in effectiveness between Conversion/Ward I and any other general's Summon Minion I.  The auto-raise abilities get more minions per level, they get them for free (in Oak's case, at a greatly reduced, non-individual cost), they get a constant stream of new ones as they die, AND the minions themselves aren't much worse on a per-unit basis.  This is terrible, and should be fixed if we're going to talk about Occ/QoT/Sedna balance at all.

At the very least, a reduction in cost for the first three levels of the summon ability.  I mean, 450-550 mana to summon ONE really crappy minion, or 625-750 for two equally crappy ones?  Are you kidding me?  Each of the first two to three levels is a waste of a skill point for everyone but MAYBE QoT w/ Mulch, and even then the sumon cost is still too high to justify getting it until you've got all of the < level 10 abilities you need.  Even when you're buying I or II at that point in the game, you only summon while standing at the stone (and sometimes not even then, if you're in a hurry) because wasting that mana on more terrible minions in combat is a really, really bad decision.

Would a cost reduction alone be enough to make summon I and II worthwhile?  I'm talking a massive reduction, like 250 mana for I (from 450-550), and 450 for II (from 625-750).  Right now it costs Sedna 1100 mana to summon two level 1 Yetis, which do exactly nothing.  I don't see how you could argue against this, but I'd love to see someone try.

Even III could use a cost reduction for Sedna and Occ.  QoT's III costs the same as II (625), which would make sense if II weren't so much worse.  I think II cost + 50-100 max would be appropriate for each general's III, as you're only gaining maximum minion count and a tiny bit of per-minion power, rather than more minions per summon.  Likewise, IV costs are appropriate, because you're getting 4 maxed-out minions every cast.  It should cost almost twice as much as III because of this.

Edit: I'd like to see Oc's IV cost less, actually, and have additional cost added by Explosive End.  Without overhauling the Ball Lightning themselves, IV is still useless without EE.  And even with BL overhauled, EE is still really powerful.

Edit 2: Well, I just looked at the ability code, and there's no way to do this without making EE into a 5th summon.  Could be done without hurting anything, but it would change the ability bar icon to the EE icon when you have it (or the EE icon would have to be changed to the BL icon).