I honestly wonder about the things you guys think sometimes... everything I said is in the context of putting speed on Angelic Fury.

Speed makes no difference when you're stuck to a tower the entire game because you sunk a bunch of points into an AA skill.

Speed late games makes a BIG difference on Reg.

I said be careful of this.

Put some speed on Reg early for a point in Angelic Fury
None after that so he cant be abusive late game.

See that sentence on net speed differences? It pretty much agrees with everything you both just said.

I understood what you said just fine, and I said if we're boosting level I of a skill that's already way, way too frontloaded, then that boost is going straight into his base speed instead so as to not make that skill level any more amazingly necessary than it already is.

Nevermind that taking a second level of Fury by level 10ish (when Snipe starts to get frustratingly useless) for a little more speed and damage is not the worst decision you could make by any means.  I still think Snipe needs better per-level increases to something, but baby steps, baby steps.

As for late-game speed being powerful, I have no experience that corroborates or contradicts that.  This is what I was arguing with hedgie about.  I tend to avoid speed items with Reg, because I'm desperately low on mana and damage and health and everything else, and that 10% speed isn't usually worth the slot.  However, if you get that extra 9-12% for 'free' with your AA skill after level 13-15, then speed might actually come into play with Reg.

I've never seen a late-game Reg going on a consequence-free killing rampage just because he got Cloak of Elfinkind and Mage Slayer at the same time, so I'm really not worried about this being too much by level 15 (when all of the 'real' demigods are still probably going to be level 18+ and up 3k gold).  I would expect it to make Reg less of a free kill, especially for the no- or weak-snare DGs.

And if this works out mostly fine, but affects Sedna THAT badly, then we should entertain some way of evening the score there, either in the form of improved bonuses from Inner Grace, a base speed boost, base armor/regen boost, or something else similar.

Most of my friends quit playing the game a while back, so I've lost my usual pool of players to mod-test with, and all I can do is play this against Peppe's nightmare AI.  It's very challenging due to their boosted gold and xp, but not a particularly realistic scenario.  So if we can get some real-game feedback with a test mod, that'd be great.

This wont make sedna tier 4 by any means. Reg wont neuter a sedna just because he can kite her without recieving damage. Who the fuck solos with sedna anyway?

Hedgie just likes to exaggerate the things that are really not that important.

That would be my take as well, but I'm not an 'experienced online player' so my opinion doesn't hold much weight.  Thus, if the Sedna thing proves to be a real concern, it can be addressed after this more pressing concern (Reg being a total free kill) is taken care of.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Also. 2v2. Not that either DA or Reg are top 2v2 demigod selections, but neither is Sedna with her lack of AoE. 

Anitheal annihilation

Oh... so you want to give him "free" stuff.

At this rate it won't be long until everyone is base speed 6.3.

What arguement do you have against giving the squishiest characters base speeds of 6.3?

I don't know how you could possibly argue against a base speed boost for DA.  That one's a given.

As for Reg, as I've already mentioned, I wouldn't be opposed to a heavier boost to Maim (and Mark slow duration) instead of significantly higher speed, but trying to make Reg tougher or more damaging will probably upset a whole lot more than adjusting his speed / snares, and doesn't fit with the character design at all.

If you think speed is a problem too, then what does that leave?  Boosting the hell out of Mark, an already good skill?  Boosting high levels of Snipe further?  I'm down with the latter, but it's not enough.  And while Mark could maybe use a little something, it isn't the problem, so it seems like misplaced focus.

It would be awesome if Reg had another favor slot.  Anklet + Renewal, Wrath + Renewal, Anklet + Wrath!  Imagine the possibilities!

so basically what Cow is suggesting already? Only baked into Angelic Fury instead. 

No problem with DA getting 6.3, he is melee and he really needs to be able to get away when he's hurt, so every little bit counts.

But free base speed 6.3 on Longest Ranged, Mr Snare (maim, mark, shrapnel) is a little much.

I concede that he can't run and gun as he is, but my thoughts are if he wants to play this way, he shouldn't get it for free and still be able to do the normal mine mark and snipe build.

5% on Angelic Fury WHEN IT IS ENABLED I'm fine with, that's a commitment towards AA while giving up full Mine/Snipe/Mark before 10.
I'm also fine with 4 second maim, because his AA is slow early on, and that extra second will let him shoot and scoot.

I'm also saying that an idea to look into for a point in scope to tackle towers (like some people do) is also longer sight so your team can see when it's time to pull back. (kinda funny that the skill is called "scope", but doesn't increase sight)

These are to go along with interrupt mark and impedance + deadeye snipe activation.

Those are plenty of changes to start with.

Actually maxsteel suggested that, cow just made a bigger deal about it. 

The test mod already has that.  If you don't want to get Fury, you don't get the serious speed boost.  6.3 base is initially only 5% faster, and it's only with this plus Fury IV that you get anywhere near the speed boost that you get from Anklet.

Quit theorycrafting and try it out.

Honestly I like these change ideas for Reg except the interrupt on mark, i don't think i will ever like that idea.

When i first suggested that a speed boost should be put on angelic fury I ment it should be as LO put it "when it is enabled" I don't like the idea of giving him base speed as much. I think cow said reg should end around 7.0 speed. Thats fine just up the % on angelic fury to make up the difference of not having a base speed increase.

Extending the time on maim could better bring the kite results some seem to be looking for by boosting reg's base speed. Considering the slow on pent starts at 5 sec and ends at 7 i think 4 seconds on maim is reasonable even though it is on base attack, but then again the base attack has a shorter range than pent or spike wave for that matter.

Longer sight from scope is a great idea imo makes total sence and really would help reg out.

I totally agree with the activations on snipe once the respecting points are invested at lvl 15. It would have to be tested but I think a stun would be better on snipe than just an interupt considering with the cast time and animation it takes a bit over the 2 sec cast time to hit making an interupt on any thing other than a teleport pretty much dumb luck.

Little things can really add up and these are a bunch of little boosts that I believe would go a long way to make reg more vaible throughout the phases of the game. reg is not that bad early on but really does need boosts to help him stay in the game later.

So either:
5/7/10% for 4/5/6s

or:
5/10/15% for 3 or 4s

I'm not sure which would be better.  The latter wouldn't be as brutal as it looks, because that would produce the same comparative difference in speed between a maimed target and Reg at III as the current mod does with base speed and III.  And without 6.3 base, Fury will have less effect per level.  So it'd be a net nerf over the 6.3 base.

However, this will be a net boost to Snipe, because dropping a heavier and/or longer snare on hit is a lot more helpful to Snipe than a bit more base speed.  And Snipe needs all the help it can get.

Here are the changes from CrazyTown that make the most difference (irrespective of bugfixes). There are alot of crazy things in crazytown, but if you wanted to keep demigod mostly the same these are the changes.

Reg
MoTB gets an interrupt
Vengance mode causes 5% movement
DA
Warp Strike gets an interrupt
DA Base Speed 6.3
TB
Firemode transition the same as Frost
QoT / Sedna
Minions scale to around 120 damage at level 4
Occ
Minions have reduced cost and scale to around 140 damage at level 4

30 Second Cooldown on the following
Amulet of teleportation
Cape of Mana
Wings of the Seraphim
Blood Soaked Wand (with 1 second cast time)

Saam-El's Cloak
10% Movement

edit: Forgot one
Symbol of Purity
Heals 500 on use

Vinling Helm
+100% mana

Explanations
Fair minions should be a no brainer to explain. Allowing the castable minion types to be around the same power level as LE/Oak allows a different way to play these DGs. (general instead of always assassin like)

TB firemode should be a no brainer to explain as well. Being able to switch and move makes a big difference for fireballing either to chase or kite.

Reg and DA interrupt
These guys need fast interrupts. Regardless what you think, fast interrupts are all around amazing at granting a power increase.

Warp Strike interrupt will undoubtedly be the most controversial suggestion on this list, but really it is a variation of a theme on all the other fast interrupts. Instead of reaching out (Oak / TB), or requiring to be close range (Sed) it is a combination of the 2. It reaches out, but puts you close range. I dunno, it probably sets of a flag in your brain, but once you play with it, you get used to it and like it.

Sure DA also has Swap, but that is not really capable of blocking something intentionally except a TP out. eg: You use it to gank, and you use it to block a TP. You don't sit on it and wait to interrupt something because usually you can't. That is where the power of a fast interrupt comes... you can interrupt a slow skill like boulder or mass charm... or it can be used to block a telegraphed move, and you can't really jig a skill unless that is your intent before you do it.

Reg and DA Speed
5% allows them to jockey for position in comparison to the other DGs that can catch and kill them if they focus on having equivalent speed. Not getting caught or chasing for a kill when its time to be mobile makes a big difference for these 2.

30 Second cooldowns.
You can use these items with 30 second cooldowns.
Blood Soaked wand is semi-strong early on for healing. (it does need the 1 second cast however to avoid excessive interrupts) and it is also strong with giants. eg: Heal 1000 on giants can make a big difference.

Saam-Els with 10% is what you pick over anklet when you face snare opponents. This item lost a purpose early on. If you install demigod without patching it, you'll see snares were alot stronger. QoT Wave had 30,40,50% snare. Reg was 10,15,20% on maim. So as snare power decreased, this favor item really wasn't necessary, as more life turned out to be a better compensation and snares were weakened. 10% speed with 15% snare protection is better than 15% speed in certain DG combos.

Symbol of Purity:
Heal 500 on use makes this item sort of like a variation of blood early on (but with a power)... 250+500 heal = effective 750 HPs. So early on, effective life while laneing can be on par with other DGs. Later in the game when a 500 heal is not as significant, the negative effect purge is like a "Freedom from BS" ability, because negative buffs get more dangerous late game.

Vinling at +100% mana regen is still up there as a non-essential item... but it does have a place over Plenor. It will combo better with Vlemish over Plenor, works better on leviathan, and still retains its good vs minions / tower rook +mana on hit ability.

Things that are probably hopeless
Staff of the Warmage: Heal, Bite, Shield and Brainstorm make it impossible to make this item fair early, yet have the power to be a second helm replacement. The line between "too good" early on and "as good as 2 helms later" is impossible, so I fear the item will never have a place.

Sabatons: These are pretty much unbreakable boots jr. I can't see a way to make changes without doing something radical to change their place without making them a primary starting item choice. (which is not what they are now)

Gloves: Will always probably be for the rich without a large paradigm shift in their use. Basically, you have more money, so can afford the same amount of life as your opponent AND more AA power. (which may or may not be better than stacking more life). Messing with armor / AA cost ratios with life is pretty hard to do and will be a drastic change in the way demigod plays.... so this should be right out the window as a possible change. 

Useless Consumables. You cant waste money on consumables and get basic items while maintaining cit upgrades at the pace of normal warrank. This would change the game drastically and is also something that should not be trifled with. eg: Since most of the remaining items are for fighting demigods, they'd have to be as good a value as sigils. That is a problem since sigils are mostly about not dying. Offensive consumable items that kill as equally as sigils save lives is a can of worms you do not want to open.

Favor mod has similar thing (~380 gold cost) and it is extremely overpowered in my opinion... 1400+1150+1400+1150 + double swap if lucky... or double snipe when not expecting or after sigil. Double shield to relock and teleport safely (no need sigil then), etc. Or... Who doesn't love getting stunned by rook's boulder and stay near his shoulder weapons close to his towers when he slams you for 1700 damage? Oh wait, what if he does that twice in a row? And what if his teammates damage you too? It is interesting, but game breaking...

That's what I thought rally should do, but thought people would get mighty angry with that idea. It's also a pretty radical change, since cooldowns are by gradual %s and a double skill focus fire form 3 DGs would probably always be fatal.  (assuming you are being serious and not facetious)... which brings up another point, that instant skills would also be preferable. eg: Pen and Spine vs Fireball.

There are only a "few" changes in the above list out of all the crazy things I've played with.

1- 3 generals can try minions (already in the game with Abusive Oak, and somewhat with hybrid LE who spends a point and gets 6 minions)
2- Weak Assassins get fast interrupts (fast interrupts are already in the game)
3- Some items get minor tweaks (cooldown allows you to use items, it doesn't change how you use them)
Symbol of purity looks radical... but really the Heal + purge ability is in the game on Sedna and Oak already
I think I already explained Saam-Els cloak quite well, it is a variation of anklet you take in certain matchups. The whole "snares were weakened" making the item's power redundant.

There are lots of things that would be nice to fix, but the changes above are the least invasive to established gameplay. eg: Sure it would be nice to buff other items . skills that are bad, but the buff level would need to be high and would change the way the game plays.

Just make that level 15 snipe skill a certain interrupt and reg lives happily after.

OK, I compiled a small mod... anyone want to play it online?

Main Theme Changes:
-Fast interrupt added to Reg and DA
-Minion Equalization for QoT, Occ, Sedna
-Favor Cooldowns

Maybe I'll host a game or 2 on Friday & Saturday to see if anyone wants to join, unless someone wants to play earlier. Since I usually see Pacov and Dark online, maybe they can wrangle up some testers too on those nights.

Link to mod

Change List

Reg
Mask of the Betrayer is an Interrupt when applied
Angelic Fury mode increases speed 5%
DeadEye and Impedance Bolt proc on snipe

DA
Warp Strike is an interrupt
Base Speed 6.3 (up from 6.0)

TB
Fire Mode Transition takes the same amount of time as Ice Mode transition (fire transition time is cut in 1/2)

QoT
Entourage I,II,III
+10 Damage (up from 6)
+100 Armor (normally no armor)

Compost Damage Affect level
6,12,18,36,54 (up from 4,6,8,10,12)

Reminder how it works
3 kills per affect level
1 points: 6,12,18
2 points: 12,18,36
3 points: 18,36,54

Sedna
Yetis II.III,IV (Yeti 1 unchanged)
+30 damage per level (up from +7 per level)
+400 Health Per level (up from +300 per level)

Occ
Ball Lightning
+35 Damage Per level (up from 20,25,30,35)
Mana Cost 250,375,500,625 (down from 450,625,800,975)

Vinling Helm
+100% Mana Per second (up from +70%)

Saam-Els Cloak
+10% Movement (up from +5%)

Holy Symbol of Purity
Heal 500 on Use in addition to purge

Favor Cooldown 30 (down from 45)
Amulet of Teleportation
Cape of Mana
Wings of the Seraphim
Blood Soaked Wand (also 1 second casttime, down from 2 seconds)

Angels
Target List: Catapultasaurus, Everything

Forgot to add the angel targeting list. If you buy cata and don't attend them, after 3,4 waves of accumulated angels cata will be taken out before they can do damage. Targeting DGs is pointless.

Well, personally I'd also like to see more defensive high-cooldown, high-mitigation abilities (Shield and Mist are the only two, Acclimation is an honorable mention). Which is why sigils are so prevalent... 

In this mythical land of 3v1 and everyone of them burning 500 gold (+ 250 for a teleport? At least for one of them) you would barely break even with the kill (of course the leveling advantage is significant). I'm saying it would be fun and make the game more interesting. Having it share a sigil makes it better. If it was "really" a problem you could make it reset all cooldowns to 2 seconds, instead of completely refreshed. You would have to have the mana to execute all your skills (Boulder Roll > Hammer Slam > Boulder Roll > Hammer Slam isn't cheap), so it wouldn't be a huge threat in the early game since most wouldn't have the cash for it.  

Not to mention, stun immunity means Boulder Roll > Hammer Slam has to have at least a few second gap in between (large enough for you to sigil). 

Again, I think that every demigod should have access to Acclimation-style skills at level 15. 

Well, there are 3 consumables that have almost no use, so I doubt anyone would miss what they offer if changed. We could tie them all to sigil cooldown and make various nasty effects of equivalent sigil worth.

Hex Scroll
Restorative Scroll
Universal Gadget

Restorative Scroll I guess would be the ideal consumable for your cooldown idea. I dunno, make it work like brainstorm. You cast the item (instant, and tied to sigil), and for X seconds all skills are on X% increased cooldown. A sort of offensive sigil. eg: For 20 seconds, 50% cooldown.

Universal Gadget could probably be made pretty unique and neat by having a different affect depending on what you cast it on. Cast on yourself for damage mitigation, cast on an ally to heal/purge etc...

Now for Hex Scroll, I don't usually think of a hex as something that prevents you from hurting me, I think of a "hex" as something that weakens you to allows me to hurt you. Any ideas on what debilitating effects this should have? eg: It marks like tracker, increases the damage you take, and hurts you when you use an ability. (OK that's a reg scroll, but it's just an example of what I define a hex as)