Warhammers are overpowered.

from Stardock Forums

I know with so many other things to work on this seems like kind of nitpicking, but warhammers really seem kind of out there in terms of balance.

There's a couple of weird things going on here.  In terms of damage they are twice as effective as any other weapon available at the same time.  They cost two metal while the mace (a solidly inferior option) costs four.  They're also one handed, but the Lord Mace (which is only marginally more powerful) takes two hands.  They are cheaper than broadswords and much more effective, even taking the combat speed modifiers into account.

A soldier with only a warhammer can attack twice for 24.  A soldier with a broadsword can attack three times for 10.  Not only is the warhammer going to be more damaging, the damage is much more frontloaded, allowing them to avoid a lot of retaliation strikes by simply killing the target on the first hit.  If you put armor on your soldiers, the warhammer can still attack twice while the broadsword loses its extra attack.  If you use a Great Warriors faction, the ratio tips even further in favor of the warhammer, because each weapon gets an extra swing and the warhammer packs a lot more punch.

There's a few ways to fix this.  I'd start by switching the metal cost of the mace and warhammer, so the warhammer takes four instead of two.  Then, I'd make the warhammer a two handed weapon.  Shields could use a boost in their defensive bonuses, which would act as a buff for one handed weapons and bring them a little closer to warhammers.

Some of the other suggested changes, like simultaneous counterattacks, could affect the balance or allow the weapon to be balanced through other means, such as a defense penalty for the warhammer and a bonus for the broadsword.  Another thing that could help balance things would be to only allow units to counterattack once per round.  The swords get more attacks and suffer more retalations, especially considering that they're far less likely to kill an enemy outright so the extra attacks aren't really much of an advantage.

elemental
10,399 views 12 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

The axe makes even less sense... its given in the same tech as the endgame weapons, but has a 12! attack and no other stat boost, and is more expensive.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Have you SEEN how much damage a warhammer can do in real life!?

In all seriousness, I also wish there was more incentive to use swords. My favored approach would be giving swords a chance to attack first when defending.

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Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

If they had done the smart thing and separated to hit and damage rolls...

then we could have meaningful weapon choices.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top


A soldier with only a warhammer can attack twice for 24.  A soldier with a broadsword can attack three times for 10.  Not only is the warhammer going to be more damaging, the damage is much more frontloaded, allowing them to avoid a lot of retaliation strikes by simply killing the target on the first hit.
End of quote

 

Also, you may have left this out as "it goes without saying", but the way that defense works makes it vastly better to hit a few times for more damage each, even leaving aside the possibility of instakills.  If the target's defense is fairly high, it would even be better if your theoretical maximum damage was SMALLER, just because you don't have to go up against as many defense rolls.

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting surlybob, reply 2
In all seriousness, I also wish there was more incentive to use swords. My favored approach would be giving swords a chance to attack first when defending.
End of surlybob's quote
Higher weapon combat speed - attacks first?
Would be a bit weird with short swords and the like having an advantage over the spears, they system might need some rebalancing.

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Norhg, reply 6
Would be a bit weird with short swords and the like having an advantage over the spears, they system might need some rebalancing.
End of Norhg's quote

Well, they could always just give each weapon it's own speed, no need to have everything grouped into categories.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting AndonSage, reply 7
Well, they could always just give each weapon it's own speed, no need to have everything grouped into categories.
End of AndonSage's quote
Do you mean a weapon speed separate from the current combat speed? I think that might be a good idea, doesn't make much sense if a spear-fighter move quicker and strike more often than someone wielding a sword even if the spear-fighter ought to get the first strike.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting surlybob, reply 2
Have you SEEN how much damage a warhammer can do in real life!?
End of surlybob's quote

Nope. And neither have you seeing as "in real life" would imply seeing warhammers :banhammer:  used in combat with killing intent.  If I'm wrong, tell me where, so I can watch.   :P  

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

There's a lot if item stats that just don't make sense. Magical cloak you get with deep magical research giving 2 def and nothing else(same as the basic soldier's cloak), fabled magical suit of armor you get from a tough dungeon fight has 12 armor and nothing else(you can buy the same in a store) etc. etc.

I guess it falls into the "it's easy to change, so we'll leave it up for later" category. They will fix/balance it eventually.

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

If we had undead mobs, warhammers would be even more uber:p

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting alborrelli, reply 9

Quoting surlybob, reply 2Have you SEEN how much damage a warhammer can do in real life!?

Nope. And neither have you seeing as "in real life" would imply seeing warhammers  used in combat with killing intent.  If I'm wrong, tell me where, so I can watch.
End of alborrelli's quote
War-hammers aren't a "real" weapon, polearms sometimes had hammerheads but they were mostly used against cavalry. One-handed hammers are extremely prolific though maces might be even more so, which were the preferred weapons of horsemen in the age of plate and chain armor. It's pretty realistic that hammers have high attack, as they were made to penetrate armor.

A special ability I would like to see is "armor penetrating" which would allow attacks to ignore some of the target's defense (scaling to the target's total defense). It would make sense especially with this kind of weapon that does heavy damage even against heavily armored foes. Would be interesting together with ranged units too, who could then become a true answer against slow, heavily armed, infantry.