Spell research AND tech research, how?

Looking at the "mock-up" of the new Research Screen and seeing that one of the branches is actually "magic" i´m wondering if we still have two divied research mechanism.

Hmm, so we research spells the same way we research techs maybe. So researching spells is not just for the sovereign, but it's spread among the population the same way building better farms would be. More population, more research.

I am VERY sure that tech research and spell research are seperate. How seperate, I don't know, but that won't even be implimented until beta six or so.

Spells aren't technologies. They're spells. Different mechanism.

Presumably the magic tree in the tech research is for magical "techs" like whatever crazy temple you need to build to harvest from a node, or other magical enhancements/buildings/units etc

Any game that has you researching Shields while you research Weapons has basically the same mechanic. Actually lots of games do this where you research multiple things at the same time by dividing a pool of research points. Only in Elemental these two things will have separate screens. No biggie. I actually like that they are divided a Lot. Magic is a very big thing in this game and it deserves to be deep and should definitely have it's own mechanics.

Spell research its-self could even be broken up further allowing you to develop spells for multiple Elements at the same time or for multiple fields. Augmentations spells could be separated from warfare spells which could be separated by healing or damage types etc etc. It could get very deep and interesting. Please don't "gimp" it.

Well, the resource that drives tech research is population, which makes alot of sense. It makes less sense for spell research though, which makes me curious as to what the currency of spell research will be. Anyone want to speculate?

Well, I like the idea of the two mechanics being separate.  It allows for a society to be, possibly, inferior in tech but highly magical (or the other way around.)  The question in my mind, though, is whether both spell research and tech research will be motivated or propelled by more of less the same mechanisms.  For instance, if your tech is high, does that also imply that your infrastructure is also attuned to propelling magical research?

I'd like the mechanisms for spell research to be different from those of tech:

+Tech buildings different from +Magic buildings.

Automatic tech growth from population, no automatic magic research.

We might use units to do the magic research, but Dominions proves that it can become quite tedious and heavy on the micromanagement side.

If it turns out to be unfun, the beta is there for changing that.

Well, tech and magic in Master of Magic became pretty closely linked, unfortunately.  The more economic growth you gained, the more you were afforded to construct power sources for magical research.  Hopefully, this won't be the case in elemental.

Well, in the case of MoM and a few other games, 'tech' is really just spell research. There is no tech beyond your spells.

I imagine the more Crystal Shards you have, the more Universities you build, and maybe how many Crystal Mines you have. I'm sure there will be a few other buildings that contribute as well. Maybe a Mage Tower.

There was no tech research in MoM. You built infrastructure like temples and libraries, but didn't research techs, only spells.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic."  -Clarke's Third Law

Tech was represented by development in cities, which was an interesting twist.  Call it development, tech, or what have you--- the more development you had in MoM, the more magical growth you were enabled.

I disagree. If you compare with Civ, techs are civ-wide and allow you to build new buildings. In MoM, all buildings are allowed from the start. Dependencies between buildings are also not tech-dependant in Civ. Units needing buildings is what most closely looks like tech requirements, but again it is very different because buildings are local to a city while tech is global to the empire.

There were 2 aspects in MoM, city development and magic research whereas E:WOM looks poised to have city development, tech research and magic research.

No, that's just one of my favorite quotes.  Asimov & Clarke are my idols.

This really is irrelevant in regard to the point of my original statement, so if it's okay with you, I'd like to drop the peripheral semantics.  Like I said last post, regardless of whether you want to call it tech or civilian development, I would like to see magic separate from them.  In MoM, a rational player never built their way up to a cathederal for the magical power it granted them before they built some other economic and production bonuses--- it was almost physically impossible (you'd go bankrupt or it would simply yield too few rewards early on to be a viable strategy).  In Elemental, I would like to see magical growth be only loosely linked to "tech."

In my mind, city development and tech are quite different from a fictional point of view. When we say 'tech', what exactly are we talking about here?

One thing that might makes things a bit bumpy in Elemental is that it's very rare in fantasy for technology to move at all, even over thousands of years. If anything it's more likely to regress. This is true not only for Tolkein but even in a highly technological setting like Star Wars, people talk about how life was better and easier previously. The abilities of the 'ancients' are almost always revered as something that will always be out of reach for the current society.

If Elemental is going to actually model a kind of technological advancement, I think this is something that is going to have to be reconciled with the back story. We know technology in the real world as something that continually marches on, albiet with a setback now and then. What will be the time scale of the game? If it takes place over the course of 200 years, and you reach the end of the tree in 150, then you have to explain why technological advancement has stopped. If it takes place over 2000 years, then you don't have as much explaining to do in that regard, but then you are sending out adventurers on 75 year quests... (1 move ~ 20 years etc.)

I see a difficult fictional task ahead!

Well, everything that you've said about many classic fictional settings is true... but Elemental--- and it's tech system--- seems to fit perfectly fine.  The world of Elemental was recently destroyed by an apocalypse, with plenty of old do-dads lying around from ruined civilizations.  And there is no "end of the tech tree."  Research continues indefinately, so that's not an issue either.

Oh, there will be an end to the tech tree. When techs start being named 'farming 10', 'farming 11' etc. then you have reached an end of the compelling choices. Alternatively when you've reached the tech called 'Bingo! I win' then you have reached an end. Alot depends on the time scale. You can simply ignore the timescale, but then you be careful not to reference time in any way, or you'll mess up the story.

In MoO there was no end to the tech tree. Weapons 100+ gave you a reduction in weapon size which was very meaningful. If shields 4323 allowed you to pump out small or even tiny ships with black hole generators, then it was a very worthwhile tech. And if researching more made it possible to have tens of powerful weapons on a small ship, then you were happy to go for it, and there was a choice as to whether pick smaller weapons, engines, or shields for instance.

So, if well done, there may be a point in researching farming 4323 too.

I have to admit this is probably the aspect of the game I am most skeptical about. I've always considered a sharp divide between fantasy and technology settings and I believe one of the hallmarks of fantasy is that it is stuck in a technological time warp (typically medieval times).

Another cause for concern for me is the fact that the research mechanic tends to be one of the least interesting aspects of a strategy game, as players tend to quickly find an optimal research path and never deviate from it, transforming it from a gameplay feature into a chore.

@ Chong Li ... play Fall From Heaven II, a mod for CIV IV BTS. Its replayability, its unique tech tree .... definitely a war-focused game, tho I do admit some can eventually build guns or cannons but other than being "mass producable" their not that good, and come far too late to be "winners".

If you wan't to find interesting research (although some people have certain rush strategies depending on map size and game speed), I would suggest it ... if nothing else than that the Civs are so different, its rare for you to want the same system over n over again. For instance, Elves can build in trees, so going mysticism and education is the best investment (and going FOL religion) while dwarves and vampires do well with large populations (in different ways) so Aristocracy + farming is the best... AKA Calendar and Code of Laws beeline.

Meanwhile, the Kuriotates have the biggest cities, but their cottages (education) also have the highest potential ... so while Aristofarming could work, a well protected cottage industry could be so much more.

It just goes on and on. That was just mentioning the "commerce" goals for tech ... saying nothing about the warfare which is 80% of the game or so.