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Spell research AND tech research, how?

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Spell research AND tech research, how?

from Elemental Forums

One thing that is very different in Elemental from previous games that I've played is that there are two different kinds of research being proposed. It's like a combination of Civ and MoM. I guess you can imagine that spellcraft is secret research developed by an individual(the sovereign), and tech research is the same thing in a way only shared with the soverign's community.

This is interesting, but I confess that I can't even imagine how this will play. Are there any other games out there that have two distinct research paths that must both be taken simultaniously? Will spell research depend directly on tech research? Will they be entirely independant on each other? Do I have to choose between spell research and tech research at a given time? Will it be cumbersome or redundant to have two trees to mind?

What do you guys think? Can two trees be made to compliment each other in a fun way?

 

 

elemental
19,767 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Elemental Forums Top

@ Chong Li ... play Fall From Heaven II, a mod for CIV IV BTS. Its replayability, its unique tech tree .... definitely a war-focused game, tho I do admit some can eventually build guns or cannons but other than being "mass producable" their not that good, and come far too late to be "winners".

If you wan't to find interesting research (although some people have certain rush strategies depending on map size and game speed), I would suggest it ... if nothing else than that the Civs are so different, its rare for you to want the same system over n over again. For instance, Elves can build in trees, so going mysticism and education is the best investment (and going FOL religion) while dwarves and vampires do well with large populations (in different ways) so Aristocracy + farming is the best... AKA Calendar and Code of Laws beeline.

Meanwhile, the Kuriotates have the biggest cities, but their cottages (education) also have the highest potential ... so while Aristofarming could work, a well protected cottage industry could be so much more.

It just goes on and on. That was just mentioning the "commerce" goals for tech ... saying nothing about the warfare which is 80% of the game or so.

End of quote

Yeah, but is the tech tree randomly generated/different every game or is it always the same? If the latter is true, then it is another example of what I'm talking about. You end up developing set strategies and not really deviating from them.

Master of Magic is different.  Every time you start a new game you get a random list of spells based on the spellbooks you've chosen. The spells you have available to research are also randomly chosen from this list. Therefore, you cannot simply follow a set pattern every game and must adapt and improvise as you go, leading to far more interesting choices.

Reply #27 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ChongLi, reply 26

@ Chong Li ... play Fall From Heaven II, a mod for CIV IV BTS. Its replayability, its unique tech tree .... definitely a war-focused game, tho I do admit some can eventually build guns or cannons but other than being "mass producable" their not that good, and come far too late to be "winners".
If you wan't to find interesting research (although some people have certain rush strategies depending on map size and game speed), I would suggest it ... if nothing else than that the Civs are so different, its rare for you to want the same system over n over again. For instance, Elves can build in trees, so going mysticism and education is the best investment (and going FOL religion) while dwarves and vampires do well with large populations (in different ways) so Aristocracy + farming is the best... AKA Calendar and Code of Laws beeline.

Meanwhile, the Kuriotates have the biggest cities, but their cottages (education) also have the highest potential ... so while Aristofarming could work, a well protected cottage industry could be so much more.

It just goes on and on. That was just mentioning the "commerce" goals for tech ... saying nothing about the warfare which is 80% of the game or so.

Yeah, but is the tech tree randomly generated/different every game or is it always the same? If the latter is true, then it is another example of what I'm talking about. You end up developing set strategies and not really deviating from them.

Master of Magic is different.  Every time you start a new game you get a random list of spells based on the spellbooks you've chosen. The spells you have available to research are also randomly chosen from this list. Therefore, you cannot simply follow a set pattern every game and must adapt and improvise as you go, leading to far more interesting choices.
End of ChongLi's quote

 

 I have to say I really prefer the MoM system. Lets remember, gaming is not so new and fresh anymore. We are almost in 2010. We have seen countless games follow the same system. I believe the MoM system offers the most value overall. I remember Ultima IV I believe, you didnt pick a character you went through a series of scenarios and was asked what you would do, and based on your choices, you got your character. I went back many times just to see what kind of character I could get.

 

  Tech trees etc, they often bore me. I want upgrades to various aspects, but it is true, after playing many many games it feels really boring. What will they choose for elemental? no idea.

Galactic Civilizations IV
Reply #28 from Elemental Forums Top

Well, let us think about the basic storyline of this game: the world has been shattered and only few survived. Some few people (or beings) are able to use magic - the channelers. The channelers started their factions and want to save/conquer the world. So:

1) the player itself can research new spells, because he/she can cast it

2) there may be a channeler (hero), that joins your cause and can help you to research spells, because he/she can cast a spells too.

3) general folks are not able to cast spells, so how can they help you? Few may work in some special building (let us say they can search in archives), but generally they can not help you much

---------------

So the point: more mana can help you to research spells. Some tomes, manuscripts and such things from the dungeons may help you to research spells. No farmer can help you, but they may help to research better irrigation system. So the spell research shall remain separated form the magical research.

There may be some positive effect of the research and magical research: if you have invented irrgiation, your flood spell may work better.

---------------

Note: if you have a hero on your side and it becomes stronger than you are, he/she may start his/hers own faction.

Reply #29 from Elemental Forums Top

That being said, same farmer that cannot help with spells can help you figure out how to build that brand new Mage Tower, since construction/architecture is a more mundane task, in the sense that it does not require essence or knowlege of essence.

If my theory is correct, the magical studies branch of the tech tree will not directly involve spell development, but will provide better materials for the sovereign to more efficiently create spells, and discover new ones. Maybe he needs a labratory with a certain form of glassware. Maybe he needs a certain material to make walls able to trap spirits/ghosts so that they cannot escape. Joe Plumber would need to figure out how to work the material into a maleable alloy that can be used in construction (that can be used to make the wall) ... basically transferring raw data (location and requirements provided by sovereing) into a workable material (synthesis) in order to allow a broader range of study for the sovereign (which will be indirectly connected to the tech tree)

alot of magical studies techs will probably only allow for faster spell research, although some techs might unlock new branches of spells. *certain spells, or processes of Imbuing Essence onto a Hero, might require a combination of Adventure and Magical Studies spells.

Reply #30 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ChongLi, reply 24
I have to admit this is probably the aspect of the game I am most skeptical about. I've always considered a sharp divide between fantasy and technology settings and I believe one of the hallmarks of fantasy is that it is stuck in a technological time warp (typically medieval times).

Another cause for concern for me is the fact that the research mechanic tends to be one of the least interesting aspects of a strategy game, as players tend to quickly find an optimal research path and never deviate from it, transforming it from a gameplay feature into a chore.
End of ChongLi's quote

I personally hope they will not hold tech back to a medieval level. I would like to see some civilitions delelope high tech/low magic while others have High Magic/low tech.

 

Reply #31 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Bellack, reply 30

I personally hope they will not hold tech back to a medieval level. I would like to see some civilitions delelope high tech/low magic while others have High Magic/low tech.
End of Bellack's quote

I'd really rather Not see guns and tanks and planes in this game. Maybe for a total conversion mod or something, but not in the base game.

Reply #32 from Elemental Forums Top

I'd really rather Not see guns and tanks and planes in this game. Maybe for a total conversion mod or something, but not in the base game.
End of quote
Seconded. Wanna make the high-tech mod official? I'll be onboard if you do.....

Reply #33 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Raven, reply 31



Quoting Bellack,
reply 30

I personally hope they will not hold tech back to a medieval level. I would like to see some civilitions delelope high tech/low magic while others have High Magic/low tech.


I'd really rather Not see guns and tanks and planes in this game. Maybe for a total conversion mod or something, but not in the base game.
End of Raven's quote

We will just have to agree to disagree here. However if they do have this in the game I am all for people being about to customize the game to thier style of play. For those who want a low tech game then there should be a easy way to adjust it  so as to not have access to advance tech same goes for those who want low magic etc.  Also these changes should be saved so the user if they wish could select the option for future games without going back each time to adjust the tech for each game. If they had this then we all win.

 

Reply #34 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Scoutdog, reply 32

I'd really rather Not see guns and tanks and planes in this game. Maybe for a total conversion mod or something, but not in the base game.Seconded. Wanna make the high-tech mod official? I'll be onboard if you do.....
End of Scoutdog's quote

I've started working on this for my own mod.  :grin:

Reply #35 from Elemental Forums Top

I don't know about tanks and plans, but perhaps long-range rifled guns and rifled cannons :grin: