Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
                                                    Ryat                        Sivcorp               Runesia
                                                    DirtySanchezz           GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile               Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike            lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                  Kitkun                 Agent of Kharma
                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

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Reply #551 from Sins Forums Top

DesConnor, I dont think you understand how the mitigation increase would work. Early level caps would still have similar mitigation to what they have now, but it would increase faster as they increase in level. So advent caps (dont understand why your singling them out either, the mitigation bonus they get is at the end of their shield research tree at tier 7, so before that point theyre the same as all other caps) at low levels still have similar max mitigation to what they would now within a few percentages. They'd just be gaining approximately 1 percent more than they would per level. So they higher level they get, the more bonus to mitigation max they get, making it scale to late game fleets better.

I have thought of something tho- I cant remember which race it is, but doesnt one of them get a bonus to max mitigation by their culture? I wanna say its advent but I cant remember. Anyone know?

Reply #552 from Sins Forums Top

It is advent...

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Reply #553 from Sins Forums Top

So they higher level they get, the more bonus to mitigation max they get, making it scale to late game fleets better.
End of quote

This will help.  But the thing is though, masses of illums melt my and other people's capships well before the capships hit high level.  I don't want to have to wait until level 9 to have a cap that might be able to accompany the fleet in battle for some length of time before dying or running away.  We really need a solution that will help caps no matter what level they are.  We need a solution that will allow caps to do their job.  Staying out of battles ain't doing their job.

Reply #554 from Sins Forums Top

That is why I was arguing for reseachables.  They are the only thing I can think of that would apply to anything you create late-game.

Reply #555 from Sins Forums Top

I have thought of something tho- I cant remember which race it is, but doesnt one of them get a bonus to max mitigation by their culture? I wanna say its advent but I cant remember. Anyone know?
End of quote

 

This is why I remind you that raising the migitiation too high will lead to superstrong caps. If you raise them high enough for the TEC and Vasari to get use from (the 80-85% range) it will allow Advent to reach closer to 90%. Then you have Advent Caps that wont die. You cant just raise the migitation really any higher than it currently is. IF you do then you risk having Caps that wont die under proper support. And that leads to Fleets of only Caps. Ive seen it happen. As a Modder Ive seen what happens when you create those monsters. Not good for your balanced MP gameplay yall want.

 

If you want to buff caps surviablity its MUST be a combination of HP, Sheilds, and Armor!!!!!  Honestly the more I think about it, Armor is the way to go with buffing caps. Adding at LEAST 3-4 points of armor would give all caps the ability to survive under fire. Hell a simple HP/Shield regen buff would help. Look at Starbases...they have a crazy ammount of regen per second. If Caps had half of that regen they be much much stronger.

Reply #556 from Sins Forums Top

Armor is an option, though I still believe that the reliability of researchables would be better than having it go up one level at a time.  That would cause high level caps to be invincible and low level ones to be weak.  Creating new researchables would IMO be the best long-term solution.  Increasing either armor or mitigation increase per level might help some and would be the easiest fix, but I think using researchables to increase the DPS, armor, shields, and hull of capitals would be the best solution.

Reply #557 from Sins Forums Top

Researchables are a decent option with the exception of having to create new Techs, which I seriously doubt the Devs will do. Mitigation would have to be extremely specific cuz carbons right, if it gets to high Advent have two mitigation bonuses that will set them above the rest. Options are pretty limited.

Reply #558 from Sins Forums Top

Volt_Cruelerz, you can forget about new researchables in the game - that's a pipe dream.  It won't happen, in a million years.

To the others, if mitigation isn't the answer because of unkillable caps, then just go back to my idea of either the diminishing returns, or a damage cap.  There is nothing wrong with either idea.  Both ideas solve the problem.  Neither idea creates unkillable caps.  Neither idea penalizes small early game fleets from killing caps.

Reply #559 from Sins Forums Top

And I don't keep highlighting chunks of my text, as above.  The stupid forums keep doing it.  I don't have any control over it, but it's not me, so please ignore it - thanks.

Reply #560 from Sins Forums Top

more damage dealt = more damage done (NO to damage cap). Max mitigation increase is better idea by far, but it is still not enough to make some caps as useful as carriercaps/colonycaps are.

Reply #561 from Sins Forums Top

I would be against any change to mitigation or some sort of damage cap against cap ships.  The last thing I want is damn near invincible cap ships.  Generally my problem keeping caps alive is early game anyways.  Once they have progressed somewhat they already become somewhat difficult to kill unless you are careless with them.  I wouldn't be opposed to some small stat increases but that would be about it.  Could you imagine a TEC using a couple of marzas that are tougher than nails in an early rush to bomb the crap out of your hw and there being nothing you could do to kill them?  I understand that you all are mostly suggesting progressive changes based on level but I could see changing mitigation or some sort of damage cap being very detrimental to balance.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #562 from Sins Forums Top

more damage dealt = more damage done (NO to damage cap).
End of quote

I keep hearing this from people.  It sounds like an emotional argument to me, not a rational one.  If this isn't an emotional kneejerk reaction, then tell me the rational reason why you are against a damage cap.  I haven't heard one yet.

Max mitigation increase is better idea by far
End of quote

But they said that mitigation increase results in unkillable caps, especially for Advent.  So again, I'm not hearing any rationalism, just emotional kneejerk stuff.

I would be against any change to mitigation or some sort of damage cap against cap ships. The last thing I want is damn near invincible cap ships
End of quote

I keep hearing this too, and I keep pointing out that a damage cap does not result in "damn near invincible caps."  But people don't listen, they just keep spouting what they want to spout without bothering to look at the mathematics of it or examine the arguments set forth.

To prove that a damage cap does not result in "damn near invincible caps," I'll ask you to go ahead and pick a number of illuminators to cap damage at.  What number do you want?  30?  40?  50?  For argument's sake, let's cap damage at 50 illums.  That means all damage from those 50 illums gets through to the cap unmitigated.  The cap melts in no time.  Is that good enough for you?  Has this resulted in an "unkillable cap?"

There is a vast leeway between "unkillable caps" and "caps that melt instantly because they don't scale to the size of fleets."  This isn't an either-or proposition.  There is an area in between.  Just because some people want to move away from the current "caps that melt instantly because they don't scale to the size of fleets" doesn't mean that we will have "unkillable caps."

If you know basic math, look at a graph of either the damage cap I proposed, or the diminishing returns idea.  Math doesn't lie (if it did, we wouldn't have a game at all).

Look, fine if people don't like this idea or that.  Seriously, I'm okay with that.  All I ask is that people at least read and understand the arguments and mathematics, approach the whole thing rationally, quit spouting disinformation, and quit with all the knee jerk emotional crap.  I mean how are we gonna balance a game if nobody approaches it rationally?

Reply #563 from Sins Forums Top

The answer your looking for Agent is a change in stats like HP,Sheilds,Armor!!!

Why do we need to add another mechanic to the game?!?!?! Even your damage cap idea is further complicating things. Sure its easy to understand you can only damage things so much. But its still another mechanic that is un needed in SINS.

 

If you take what we have now, you can make cap ships powerful enough to with stand moderate FF.

 

Even if you dont wanna tweak the max/inital HP,Sheild,Armor....look at Starbases for the answer. Give caps a larger Regen per second. Currently their regen is crap. Even out of combat.

 

If we use every tool already given to us we can tweak Caps to whatever is needed. Again I say look at DS, we have tweaked caps. You dont have to use the stats we use BUT it gives you an idea on what we did and how they play ingame.

I be happy to post the stats changes we did for them here if yall are interested but Im sure 75% of you will go OMG are crazy?!? B/c they are seem high compared to non modded SINS, but its why I suggest trying them out ingame.

Reply #564 from Sins Forums Top

I keep hearing this from people.  It sounds like an emotional argument to me, not a rational one.  If this isn't an emotional kneejerk reaction, then tell me the rational reason why you are against a damage cap.  I haven't heard one yet.
End of quote

"Caps should get butterfly wings and should eat each other"

"no, they shouldn't - it is 100% unrealistic and against balance"

"it sounds like emotional argument"

Damage cap is bad idea. If you attack something with 100 ships you expect this thing dieing faster (even if it is 1-2s faster) then it die attacked by 20 ships. It is natural, balanced and intuational aspect of every game. If you say "ships are dieing too fast to large armadas" I say: damage system limiting effectiveness of large fleets focusing fire already exist and is called "shield mitigation". There is no reason to ad something completly unrealistic and non-intuitional like "damage cap". And believe me, it is not emotional argument, even if idea of adding another unneded, unrealistic and non-intuitional mechanic is implicating strong emotions...

But they said that mitigation increase results in unkillable caps, especially for Advent.  So again, I'm not hearing any rationalism, just emotional kneejerk stuff.
End of quote

 

If we increase natural max mitigation to ~90% then Advent caps will be really hard to kill, but if we stay at ~80% level and buff non-advanet caps in terms of HP/Armor/Shields (at least more then Advent caps) then there will be no problem with balancing it.

Reply #565 from Sins Forums Top

I've brought this up in another post, but...

I would be more for nerfing the LRF's ANTIMEDIUM's Very Heavy and Capital damage to 50% (similar to LF which is ANTIHEAVY). They would still be affective at taking out a capital and structures over time (similar to LF), just not as affective as bombers or HC. I'm also more in favor of buffing Capital's ship damage modifiers to 125-150% for Very Heavy and below. It seems odd that normal LF and Cruisers get a damage modifier bonus against other certain armor types but capital ships do not. This would have positive impacts without a lot of changes to the current hull/shield/weapon points in place.

Reply #566 from Sins Forums Top

If the shield mitigation are going to be raised, there must be some sort of penalty.  If you want to have battleships stay longer on the line with 90% mitigation, they must lower their speed down to at least 75% to keep them from running away when the battle is going bad.  It will be bad enough if battleships or any other cap can kill twice their worth in frigates and cruisers before going down.

Reply #567 from Sins Forums Top

Any thoughts on giving Vasari caps more HP/Shields to compensate for their inferior frigs?

Reply #568 from Sins Forums Top

Vasari frigs are the problem, not their caps. And its really only the scout and the light frigate that are underpowered. Once those are corrected they will have less of a disadvantage early game (and less of a heavy reliance on the Orkulus to squeak by to mid-game), which is currently their biggest drawback.

Reply #569 from Sins Forums Top

Arthanis, fine with me if you want to bump mitigation.  Then your fight is no longer with me, it is with 1) the people who say it will create unkillable caps, or 2) the people who want smaller early game fleets to be able to chase away caps bombing their homeworld.

A damage cap would neither create unkillable caps, nor penalize small early game fleets, but if you don't like the idea, I guess that's your perogative.

The answer your looking for Agent is a change in stats like HP,Sheilds,Armor!!!

Why do we need to add another mechanic to the game?!?!?! Even your damage cap idea is further complicating things. Sure its easy to understand you can only damage things so much. But its still another mechanic that is un needed in SINS.
End of quote

Fine with me -Ue_Carbon.  I'd support this over what we have now.  But again, you're gonna be fighting with 1) the people who say it will create unkillable caps, or 2) the people who want smaller early game fleets to be able to chase away caps bombing their homeworld.

The thing about either mitigation or HP/shields/armor is, it will penalize small early fleets who want to chase away an early cap (or pair of them) attacking the homeworld.  You'll see even more early caps built than you see now, more cap rushes, etc.  Now, that's perfectly fine with me - it really is.  But some others have been pretty adamant that they don't want that.  My ideas don't touch early game fleets or the damage they deal.  My ideas do one thing and one thing only - scale the survivability of the capship to the size of the fleet.

I've brought this up in another post, but...

I would be more for nerfing the LRF's ANTIMEDIUM's Very Heavy and Capital damage to 50% (similar to LF which is ANTIHEAVY).
End of quote

Sounds like an interesting idea.  Off the top of my head, would be totally fine by me.  But again, you'll run into the very same people who worry about early game fleets not being able to chase away caps.

 

Reply #570 from Sins Forums Top

@Agent: Is it a pipe dream?  Yes.  Do I think it would be best, once again, the answer is yes.

Also, its not emotional to say your idea doesn't make sense.  Damage caps cannot be justified in lore whatsoever as they simply make no sense.  More guns aimed at you=more damage you receive.  Its common sense, not emotion.

@Carbon/Agent: I do believe that we have the capacity to help capitals with current game mechanics.  I am just wanting you guys to understand that late game, I believe there could be breaks between powerful high-level caps and super-weak low level ones.  Because if you have caps scale with their level more, then you run the risk of getting slaughtered by a rush.  I would not find it unusual to be rushed by capitals that would end at level 3-4.  Also, in MP, you likely will not see any capitals higher level than 6 or maybe 7.

With a buff, you could improve this so that capitals might make it to 8, but anything beyond that would be an outlier.  This means that within 4 levels, you have to go from decent to awesome without having either being OP or UP respectively.  The only way I see this happening is if you nerf (yes I said nerf) capitals in exchange for a much higher and better improvement rate.  The power of old caps versus new ones would cross at around level 3-4.  In this way, you could have high powered caps at the end without disturbing the status quo at the beginning much.

Reply #571 from Sins Forums Top

Damage caps cannot be justified in lore whatsoever as they simply make no sense.
End of quote

I could give a flying rat's ass about lore.  But if you want lore, fine.  The same race that created the phase jump inhibitors also created damage inhibitors.  These artifacts have been installed on all capships.  They are wired in to the shield mitigation systems of the capship.  Any amount of damage coming in over a certain amount gets pinched.  How?  The technology I cannot explain, because it is too high tech - none of the races understand it.  But the principle is that lower amounts of damage (energy) are not enough to charge the device up to achieve the effect.  But once a huge amount of damage starts coming in and hitting the shields and mitigation, the device charges up with that energy and activates.

There.  I came up with that lore in about 10 seconds.  If it doesn't suit your fancy, there is some other person out there that can construct something that will.

More guns aimed at you=more damage you receive.
End of quote

I think you are hung up on this dogma or whatever it is - you keep repeating it over and over.  Personally I see no reason to adhere to such a rule, but if that's your fundamental idea of how the game should play out - an idea that trumps any and everything else - so be it.

Because if you have caps scale with their level more, then you run the risk of getting slaughtered by a rush.
End of quote

That's why my idea in fact DOESN'T have caps scale with their level.  It has caps scale with fleet size.

Reply #572 from Sins Forums Top

No matter how you try to twist and distort this,  it won't change the truth of it.  More guns will always mean more damage.  A damage cap is absulutely ridiculous, would ruin the game, and put an end to the only real reason to have a massive fleet.

And as to the lore, you can say you don't care about it all you want, but the truth of it is, the majority of people playing now would not be if the game had simply shipped with "Here's 3 armies, go blow shit up" as the only explaination.  The lore is a key part of this game's success.

As i've already said, Deciever's idea makes the most sence.  A more expierienced crew will know their ship better, be able to adjust their shields better, and even have made adaptations most likely to improve their ship.  If you don't agree with this, then you must also think that the cap ships shouldn't gain aditional damage output as they level, because that is exactly the same thing.  Cap ships are by design, meant to grow more powerful, not be powerful right out of the gate.  Mitigation increase as they level furthers this, and increasing this will increase their survivability late-game.

THat said, i can see where you're coming from, trying to fix the problem from a purely programming standpoint.  It would fix the problem, but not in a way that is acceptable to the entire comunity, or even the majority.  Mitigation increase does.  It makes them survive longer, doesn't dictate how many ships you build, and is purely and simply easy to expain in the lore.  Perhaps a hybrid of mitigation increase, and, i believe this was Swordsalmon's idea, though i may be wrong, an accuracy decrease after a certain number of ships have opened fire on the same vessel.

-Exile(\/)

Reply #573 from Sins Forums Top

A damage cap is absulutely ridiculous, would ruin the game, and put an end to the only real reason to have a massive fleet.
End of quote

Well this is simply a bunch of horseshit.  I think you are just pulling words out of your ass at this point.  A damage cap would in no way put an end to the only real reason to have a massive fleet.  What kind of hyperbole is that?  It's absurd on the face of it.  Massive fleets would still win over small fleets if there were damage caps.

Look, if you don't like the idea of a damage cap, fine.  I can respect that.  I DO have a problem with bullshit statements, however.

Reply #574 from Sins Forums Top

You guys are gettin out there.The only one that has any chance of making it is adjusting miti to cap levels.I would never vote yes to more than what deciever has suggested.80-82% tops.Otherwise its rediculous how much caps will be able to absorb.One of the fun aspects of the game is using your cap while its in danger.if your cap is never in danger then your just spamming abilities and not really accomplishing much.Bottom line for me is I will be voting no for anything over 82% and Im even hesitant for that much.

Reply #575 from Sins Forums Top

CAPITAL SHIPS

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-    

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-       

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-         

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                    Nay- 

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-   

      Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-             

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-  

        Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-              

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Nay-             

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                                         

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-               

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

      Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-                 

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-

 

FIGHTERS

Increase armor/hp?

                                  Nay-             

MAPS

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-           

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-                                             

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

                                     Nay-          

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-        

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

Nerf Scouts-

 

No Nerf Needed-                              

 

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-      

                                               

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                      Nay-        

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                       Nay-    

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-                                   

Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-                                            

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                         
                                      Yay-       

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                   Nay-        

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                   Nay-        

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-