Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
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No Change Needed-

 

 

 

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Reply #526 from Sins Forums Top

I thought about this last night and today.  Like MindsEye says, why make it complicated?

What about a plain, simple DAMAGE CAP (dps) for capital ships?  This will have the same effect as my previous system or other systems proposed.  Anything under the capped dps to capships get's through unmitigated.  Anything over gets pinched.  There could be some exceptions made, like TEC boombases, vasari superweapons, missle barrage, mines, maybe celeio designate target or whatever.

The good things about this idea are: 1) It is SIMPLE and easily implemented by the devs.  If we ignore exceptions like TEC boombases, I could show you a single line of code that should do it, more or less.  2) Say the balance changes in the future due to a patch (has that ever happened before?).  And let's say bomber spam or heavy cruiser spam rules.  No need for another solution - caps are still protected.  And if some magic balance is ever reached, and everyone builds nothing but balanced fleets, then this simple change will have no effect whatsoever.  A win all the way around.

There is no worry about early cap rushes bombing your homeworld - whatever early fleet you have will deal the same dps as now.  Just figure out how many illums you think is reasonable to kill a capship in a reasonable amount of time (20?), figure out that dps, and cap it at that.

// Sample line of code, (C style), ignoring any exceptions to dps like boombases, etc:

if (target_dps > MAX_DPS) target_dps = MAX_DPS ;

Reply #527 from Sins Forums Top

I hate all ideas of damage caps. It is both unrealistic and against balance at all. Fix broken interactions between unit clases instead of creating artificial solutions like this.

 

 

Just buff caps. There are many ways of doing it:

- buffing damage

- buffing hp/shields

- increasing number of SC

- buffing abilities

- buffing attack behaviour (number of targets per bank, attack fange etc.)

- changeing armor values vs some weapon types

- changeing attack valuses vs some armor types

- reducing cost

- reducing supply requirements

- changeing mitigation values

 

I see no single reason of adding something like "damage cap"

 

 

IMO best way of fixing caps is:

1. Buff UP abilities to level making them viable choice (GRG for example)

2. Increase max number of strikecrafts to 3 on Battleships/Planet killers and to 5 on support caps

3. Buff all UP caps HP/SH/DPS to level making them viable choice

 

I know it is easy to tell but more difficult to do, but IMO we should not try to create new stuff causing new possible imbalances (like "damage cap").

Multiplicity - Control multiple PCs using one keyboard and mouse
Reply #528 from Sins Forums Top

Buff Replicate Forces?

  Yay, number should depend on what unit is selected + I am not sure but if SC is not copied when targeting a carrier please do so :D

Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

  Nay  

Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

   Yay

 Buff Phase out hull?

  Yay maybe give it an Am-draining effect

Reply #529 from Sins Forums Top

 

I discussed this issue with agent.We were talking about 80 ilums.Basically I agree with you deciever.I dont think any new tecs or systems will ever make into the game and this is the only way I can think of to reduce massive ff on caps that the devs might use.I am not in favor of reducing damage modifier to caps from lrf.Basically I think a good number is an additional 1-1.5% per cap level.Just to throw out the numbers without sidebeams I can use javs 11 dps.6% of that is .66. So each jav will do .66 less dps.Not alot but if you add it up between 40-50 ships it becomes significant.

I think where the ds team got into trouble was that the more miti a ship has the more your support abilities negate.The lower amount of dps each ship does the more ships get negated by support and repair.Thats why I think its so careful not to go to high.

 

Well for 1 thats alot of ships compared to 1 ship.Alot of fire to absorb.I dont want to see caps become unstoppable but they need better survivability I agree on that.One thing I would like to see is a good counter to lrf like fighters.This would cut down on the issue.One thing is you can do alot in the way of survivability for caps.You have hoshis and dunov for tec.If dunov gets buffed you will be seeing it more often.750 shield restore is pretty good.Advent have progen which is up to 62.5 dps plus guards is another 33%.Vas have overseers and skirantra.Support abilities can prob completely negate around 15-20 ilums.If you make caps to tough how would you ever kill a level 6 marza?I am in support of a miti buff as they level up to a total of 10.That would put a level 6 with 6% more miti then it has now.It doesnt sound like much but the more ships the more damage/ships can be negated by support abilities.An ilum does about 17 damage.6% of 17 is about 1.Each ilum would do 1dps less.So for 80 ilums thats -80 dps.This is if all ilums are using all sidebeams on the cap which is not likely but you get the idea.

Like I was sayin tho fighters need to be able to deal with lrf.This would heavily cut down on lrf in a game.It has been proven to keep lrf at low numbers.

 

Finally we have alot of buffs to caps already on the thread.If the devs listen almost all caps will have significant impacts to the game with respects their abilities.We dont want them to be to hard to kill or they will make frigs useless.

 

Reply #530 from Sins Forums Top

One other Idea for survivability is to buff their speed and maneuverability.Then they could retreat and turn faster.

I didnt realize the celio lasted for so long.One of the probs with it is they only cast on targets that have shield damage?Ships get ff in this game so the 10% damage buff doesnt help you much.Maybe reduce its total time from 60 sec to 30 and up shield to 10.I dont think 10 is enuf to negate 2 ilums ff.

Deciever one other idea as regards carrier caps.I liked darvins idea about reducing thier bombing damage.They remain powerful but a little less useful for rushing.I think its a good idea and will separate all the caps unique qualities even more.

Reply #531 from Sins Forums Top

Ok here would be Cap ship Mitigation stats if the increase was 1.8% per level and cap was 80%:

Lvl1: 63(.8)%

Lvl2: 65%

Lvl3: 67%              

Lvl4: 69%

Lvl5: 71%

Lvl6: 72%

Lvl7: 74%

Lvl8: 76% 

Lvl9: 78%

Lvl10:80%

With these stats, Cap ships could reach the current max lvl10 mitigation by lvl6. With javs DPS as an example, at lvl 6 javs with 11 dps would do only 3 dps, multiplied by 80 javs is only 240 dps. At lvl10 its gets reduced further to 176 dps.

Reply #532 from Sins Forums Top

How specialized different caps are?

 

IMO not much.

In "specialized" world:

- Battleship should be only one ship able to deal and take huge damage (while differences betwen different classes are not drastic)

- Carrier should be only one with real SC potential (it is mostly truth... bot only this one point)

- Colonizers should be completely focused on colonization (again - not truth. Some of their combat abilities are more powerful then combat classes have)

- Planet Killers should be only one class able to deal real damage vs planet and should be relatively weak in everything else (not truth: on the one hand caps bombard abilities are very similar, on the second hand lvl 6 marza is worth more then battleship...)

- Support class should be support kings (agaons- not truth. They have same number of abilities as other classes, but have also relatively low health, low DPS, small SC armament... nothing special at all)

 

 

So instead of trying to make caps speciallized (which require entire caps rebalancing, because nothing work way it should work...), underused caps should bve buffed in general.

 

ATM two caps classes which don't need huge rebvalancing (just because they are far more useful then other classes...) are Colonizers and Carriers.

 

Rest of capships should get multiple slight buffs in many aspects (IMO better option then huge buff to one-two things. Caps are not specialized, and trying to make them specialized will cause many possible imbalances):

- slight SC number increase (3 on BS/PK, 5 on support)

- slight hp/sh increase (10-20% - depending how up selected cap is)

- slight dps increase (see above)

- buffs/AM cost reduction to underused abilities making them viable choice (RGR, Animose etc)

 

 

Finally, some op stuff like Marza rocket barrage need some reworking, since entire game should not be balanced around one OP ability (It is my reply to people who say "don't make caps too strong because lvl 6 marza will be invincible")

Reply #533 from Sins Forums Top

Marza MB is no longer an OP ability, Advent can negate most of the damage with a progen shield restore, can stop it with reverie or detonate AM. Vasari bombers can bypass shields and mitigation, can survive it with repair clouds, or shut it down with Phase out hull and possibly disruptive strikes.

Reply #534 from Sins Forums Top

Marza MB is no longer an OP ability, Advent can negate most of the damage with a progen shield restore, can stop it with reverie or detonate AM. Vasari bombers can bypass shields and mitigation, can survive it with repair clouds, or shut it down with Phase out hull and possibly disruptive strikes.
End of quote

 

It was just counter-argument to people who don't want to buff caps because of "invincible lvl6 marza", you don't need to convince me. My point is "thing A should not prevent making things B, C, D, and E balances just because their buff will make thing A - if so, thing A need reworking, not things B-E are supossed to stay weak". There is nothing to discuss about "thing A".

Reply #535 from Sins Forums Top

>_>  

Reply #536 from Sins Forums Top

What are the current stats?I thought caps start at 65% and go up 1% per level.

As of 1.03 kortul

maxMitigation
 StartValue 0.650000
 ValueIncreasePerLevel 0.011110

Reply #537 from Sins Forums Top

Ok here would be Cap ship Mitigation stats if the increase was 1.8% per level and cap was 80%:
End of quote

Not a bad idea, per se (bumping mitigation as a cap levels).  I'd certainly support it over doing nothing.  But can we do better?

As I and Darvin have said, the problem seems to be that the role of caps does not scale with fleet size.  The above makes mitigation scale with cap level.  But how about, quite literally, making it scale with fleet size!

Option 1:   Additional mitigation added to ALL caps in the game according to the maximum researched fleet level in the game.
Option 1A: Additional mitigation added to YOUR caps according to YOUR maximum researched fleet level.

Option 2:   Additional mitigation added to ALL caps in the game according to the maximum researched cap crew level in the game.
Option 2A: Additional mitigation added to YOUR caps according to YOUR maximum researched crew level.

I like option 1 the best, because it most directly maps the problem (cap role not scaling with fleet size) with the solution (scaling added mitigation to fleet size).

Reply #538 from Sins Forums Top

Though it is less realistic than mitigation with levels.  I say, Deciever's plan is best.  It caps out at 80%, and brings advent to 84.  If it eren't for their mitigation research, i'd say go 85% across the board, but since they do, this is the best plan.  Scaling to fleet size is like saying "I have more ships, so they are stronger"  No.  Having more ships means you can take a heavier beating, but not on a ship to ship basis.

Although, another way to go would be a 4-6 tier mitigation research on Cap Ships only, like, 5% per level, 3 levels total available.

Now that  write it, Deciever still seems to have the better idea, but maybe someone can work with this...or it's already been said and i missed it...

-Exile(\/)

Reply #539 from Sins Forums Top

Caps are not UP is large-scale battles only... But I like this (max mitigation increase) buff anyway.

Reply #540 from Sins Forums Top

Though it is less realistic than mitigation with levels.
End of quote

Not sure that I agree, but screw "realism," I care more about solving the problem.

The problem is cap survivability scaling to fleet size.  My solution is cap survivability (mitigation) scaling to fleet size.  Problem solved.

Scaling to fleet size is like saying "I have more ships, so they are stronger"
End of quote

Scaling to fleet size is like saying "there is a problem with cap survivability scaling to fleet size, so I will solve it by making cap survivability scale to fleet size."

Reply #541 from Sins Forums Top

Minds-

I tested them directly (built a cap and sent in to enemy territory alone to be pummeled by enemy ships and defenses) , and at lvl 1 most (didnt test all) start with 62% max mitigation. I assumed most caps were the same in that regard but I may be wrong based on your 1.03 Kortul stats. Perhaps I should just put up a topic for vote on increase on max shield mitigation gain per level, and let the Devs figure out the specifics, they can test adjustments more thoroughly than most of us can anyway.

I'm pretty convinced that increasing max mitigation gain per level and fixing illum bug will cut down on huge LRF fleets bulldozing caps. As I've said before, the games balance is closer to perfect than ever, so lots of small adjustments are going to be the best way to get it closer, as opposed to 1 large adjustment that could have unforeseen consequences. Also, adjusting code thats already in place is much easier than creating new code.

Reply #542 from Sins Forums Top

Just an interesting thought about capital ships - since the Vasari frigates are definitively inferior to their TEC and Advent counterparts (at least until Optimized Construction and RA come into play in the late game), and Vasari capital ships are clearly very important (just look at the crew sizes for Vasari caps vs. crew sizes for Advent & TEC caps), wouldn't it be a good balancing measure to give a HP/Shields increase exclusively to Vasari capital ships, to counterbalance their weaker frigates?

This would give them a ready counter to a scout/lf rush that doesn't involve an Orkulus, since their buffed caps could hold out for a long time against these ship types.  By giving them caps, the Vasari be rendered even more unique without becoming imbalanced, since their frigates would remain inferior to other races.  And in the late game, bomber spam would make those extra defenses worth very little - either you kill the bombers or lose the cap.

Reply #543 from Sins Forums Top

How about an accuracy penalty when too many ships fire on the same target?  Accuracy penalties already exist in the code, and accuracy is currently underused- this method would help the Akkan and Radiance.  I'm also concerned that a mitigation increase would be a further buff for Advent.  Advent already suffer least from the vulnerability of capital ships.

I can't agree that the game's balance is closer to perfect than ever.  It's isn't even as balanced as before the balance patch.  The worst problem before the patch was Illuminator spam and the Illuminators were heavily buffed, perhaps due to a bug but it is one that hasn't been fixed.  When the top players will no longer feel forced to choose Advent to play each other 1v1, then the game might approach balance.  What is apparent is that TEC players have so little confidence in the alleged power of the Level 6 Marza that most of them have jumped at the opportunity to field a Sova, allowing them some game on the defensive.  It is all Advent, the only respite in team games is that they counter each other somewhat.  Or find me a replay between equally skilled players that shows otherwise?     

I suspect that the new expansion is meant to affect gameplay balance, though it is difficult to see how it can boost the factions that need early help in the 1v1 game.  Until we organise proper 1v1 testing, like any other decent RTS, this is all just conjecture.  We need to have good players who will play 1v1, Advent vs Vasari, Vasari vs TEC, TEC vs Advent, and then take the other side, and then put up the replays.  We need a standard map.  These are very basic practices for RTS testing. 

When there are hotfixes being put out for beta issues fairly regularly, why can't we have a hotfix for the Illuminators?  Why can't the beta hotfixes include simple fixes for the basic game?  I'm losing confidence that there will ever be the sort of balancing that the game desperately needs.  Why test a deliberately bugged game?

Reply #544 from Sins Forums Top

Desconnor-

Mitigation additions assists Vasari the most, as theyre the only race that can bypass mitigation entirely. Accuracy code does already exist, but again, it would have to be somehow coded in to ship targeting etc etc. Mitigation gains are ALREADY coded into cap ships, one simply has to adjust the gains. I do believe with all the changes made in the previous patch brought the game much closer to balance because, evethough there is STILL an illuminator problem, there is now more usage of other ships like LFS, CArrier caps, and less usage of repulse. Also one should note that many of the changes called for above are somewhat trivial, while the changes on the last PSCF were all much less so. That to me says improvement. Advent are still out of line, but thats mainly due to 1 problem, as oppsed to a host of problems from the previous patch.

Also, the expansion is aimed at creating diplomatic relations, not balance. I suspect they have a deadline to meet that is fast approaching which is why all hands are on deck to get that rolled out. Ironclad isnt a huge company with hundreds of employees working on lots of different projects. Theyre relatively small, and certainly are focused on getting Diplomacy debugged and the additions balanced. Im confident that despite this, they'll still patch the game (theyve done so many times already havent they?), so we should certainly give our input on what needs adjustment to help.

Reply #545 from Sins Forums Top

Hi DesConnor, I think the reason pros aren't lining up to do your suggested testing 1v1 is that everybody and their mother already knows Advent is OP.  I mean, usually when you see people calling for nerfs of something, like marza MB, you'll have a bunch of defenders lining up on the other side of the issue, saying no nerf is needed, blah blah.  But just look at the absence of people lining up to defend the Advent.  The silence on the other side is deafening!

Reply #546 from Sins Forums Top

@Deceiver: Maybe..  I'm not totally against that, but I'm certainly not for it either.  Honestly, I don't see any good option, just a bunch of things that would end catastrophically and a few that might work.  Here are those that might:

Mitigation Increase:

Pros: Decreases the damage dealt to capital ships very effectively.

Cons: Could cause Advent capitals to become nearly invincible and raise effectiveness of capital rushing.  (And albeit a somewhat selfish reason, would ruin one of abilities in my mod.)

Health Increase Per Level:

Pros: Increases survivability to capitals.

Cons: Risks making level 10 capitals invincible or leaving low level ones out to dry.

Researchables:

Pros: Would effectively increase survivability and could possibly buff other things such as damage.  Would also prevent newer capitals from getting destroyed due to its base on technological level rather than ship level.

Cons: Costs money.  This would discourage people from buying it unless they had spare cash.  Unless of course you had them really cheap, but then quick-teching might increase the power of capital rushes.

 

I don't know which one to go with.  There are the pros and cons of each.

Reply #547 from Sins Forums Top

So if there was a problem with late game hordes of Vasari LRF demolishing capitals, the mitigation-based solution wouldn't affect it, if mitigation bypass was a reliable method to kill capitals?  Higher mitigation for capitals will just make Advent colony caps invincible early, and hence Guardians more effective again.  Also, should there somehow be a balanced version of the early game, a mitigation solution would then imbalance it in favour of the late game Vasari, whose weakness is not the problem..?

I'm confident that the game will be patched again, but Advent have been too strong for a long time, and the absence of an Illuminator bugfix doesn't encourage me to believe that they will be fixed.  It's a simple fix as well.  Even if there's some desire not to disturb the current multiplayer game- why, so it can be crap?- that shouldn't apply to the beta, why isn't the fix, or any attempt at it, there?

I'm in the same awkward position as you Agent, my play isn't consistently strong enough to be any help convincing anyone.  We need some of the top players, and especially the innovators.  I'd like to see a replay of Pawelo's Vasari 1v1 against a 'Tier player' as Advent.  The game has to be balanced for 1v1... that is balance.

Reply #548 from Sins Forums Top

Minds-

I tested them directly (built a cap and sent in to enemy territory alone to be pummeled by enemy ships and defenses) , and at lvl 1 most (didnt test all) start with 62% max mitigation. I assumed most caps were the same in that regard but I may be wrong based on your 1.03 Kortul stats. Perhaps I should just put up a topic for vote on increase on max shield mitigation gain per level, and let the Devs figure out the specifics, they can test adjustments more thoroughly than most of us can anyway.

I'm pretty convinced that increasing max mitigation gain per level and fixing illum bug will cut down on huge LRF fleets bulldozing caps. As I've said before, the games balance is closer to perfect than ever, so lots of small adjustments are going to be the best way to get it closer, as opposed to 1 large adjustment that could have unforeseen consequences. Also, adjusting code thats already in place is much easier than creating new code.
End of quote

I like your suggestion and I agree with it.Its weird 1.03 files says caps start with 65 but really start with 62?I didnt know they changed it.

Reply #549 from Sins Forums Top

So waht you guys think of my suggestion for ther celio.

Reply #550 from Sins Forums Top

Don't fix what ain't broke.

-Exile(\/)