Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
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                                                    Hrabandur               -Ue_Carbon          Qu4r 
                                                    CrazyElectron            Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

 

No Change Needed-

 

 

 

1,704,814 views 913 replies +3 Loading…
Reply #601 from Sins Forums Top

If LRF are supossed to be counter to everything in game, there is no reason of balance discusion.

 

Anyway, what do you think of my idea?

Reply #602 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with your idea is that Illums are suppose to charge into the fray to be able to use all three beam attacks. 

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #603 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with your idea is that Illums are suppose to charge into the fray to be able to use all three beam attacks.
End of quote

 

The problem are Ilums which are OP because they hve too many roles and are cost-effectively countering too many things. Choosing between safe attack range and 3 beam with reduced accuracy sounds fair, Advent have enough options to fill all holes.

Reply #604 from Sins Forums Top

Capital ships are a hard counter to LF at the moment
End of quote

No; LF are actually a soft counter to capital ships.  For instance, the best counter to a double-Halcyon rush as Advent is a single-Halcyon rush with a swarm of disciples.  Use TK push to suppress strike craft and the light frigates will actually kill (or at least force the retreat of) one of the Halcyons.

Heavies and structures are also soft counters to LF, since structures cannot move and heavies come very late and aren't actually that overwhelming (it's LRF that heavies mince).

Reply #605 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps a way to solve the problem would be to buff the damage multiplier of antiverylight against light targets.  That way Flak would do a better job at protecting caps as they would more easily counter LRF.  I don't know if that would make bombers obsolete though...  Idk, just throwing it out there...

Reply #606 from Sins Forums Top

OOOrrrr....reduce LRF damage multiplier vs Caps.

Reply #607 from Sins Forums Top

Proposed Capship changes:




Capital Battleships:

Kol Battleship:
- Health increased to 3200 (from 3000)
- Shields increased to 1400 (from 1250)
- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)
- Laser DPS increased to 13.25 (from 8.25)
- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)
- Max number of strikecrafts increased to 3 (from 2)
- Railguns: Antimatter cost decreased to 30 (from 75)
- Railguns: Cooldown increased to 12 (from 6)

Radiance Battleship:
- Health increased to 2350 (from 2200)
- Shields increased to 1950 (from 1750)
- Beam DPS increased to 20.0 (from 15.0)
- Plasma DPS increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)
- Armor increased to 5.5 (from 4.5)
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Animosity: affected ships now have 5%/10%/15% accuracy reduction (effective 5%/10%/15% damage reduction)

Kortul Devastator:
- Health increased to 2800 (from 2650)
- Shields increased to 1575 (from 1425)
- Wave DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)
- Phase Missiles DPS increased to 10.8 (from 5.8)
- Armor increased to 6 (from 5)
- Max number of Squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Disruptive Strikes: Triggering chance increased to 33% (from 25%)
- Disruptive Strikes: Abilities cooldown increase increased to 20%/40%/60% (from 17%/33%/50%)




Capital Support:

Dunov Battlecruiser:
- Health increased to 3000 (from 2800)
- Shields increased to 1275 (from 1125)
- Autocannons DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)
- Missile DPS increased to 11.0 (from 6.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)
- Magnetize: Antimatter cost decreased to 50 (from 80)

Rapture Battlecruiser:
- Health increased to 2250 (from 2100)
- Shields increased to 1825 (from 1625)
- Laser DPS increased to 16.0 (from 11.0)
- Beam DPS increased to 14.0 (from 9.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)
- Vertigo: Range increased to 6000 (from 4500)
- Vertigo: Area Radius increased to 2500/3000/3500 (from 2000/2500/3000)
- Domination: Antimatter Cost reduced to 75 (from 150)

Antorak Marauder:
- Health increased to 2675 (from 2525)
- Shields increased to 1375 (from 1225)
- Pulse Beam DPS increased to 17.0 (from 12.0)
- Phase Missiles damage increased to 15.0 (from 10.0)
- Armor increased to 5 (from 4)
- Max number of squadrons increased to 5 (from 3)




Capital Planet Killer:

Marza Dreadnauth:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)
- Incendiady Shells: damage rate increased to 6/9/12 (from 3/4.5/6)

Revelation Battlecruiser:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 2)
- Guidance: Antimatter cost reduced to 35 (from 75)
- Guidance: cooldown time reduced to 10 (from 20)

Vulkoras Desolator:
- Max number of squadrons increased to 3 (from 1)
- Phase Missiles Swarm: Antimatter cost reduced to 60 (from 90)




Capital Carrier:

Sova Carrier:
- Heavy Strikecraft: damage buff increased to 15%/30%/45% (from 12%/24%/36%)
- Heavy Strikecraft: armor buff increased to 4/5/6 (from 2/3.5/5)

Halycon Carrier:
- Telekinetic Push: Cooldown increased to 20 (from 10)
- Anima Tempest: Cooldown reduced to 90 (from 180)

Skinatra Carrier:
- Scramble Bombers: Antimatter cost reduced to 40/30/20 (from 50/40/30)
- Microphasing Aura: Radius increased to 10000 (from 8000)
- Replicate Forces: Create 6 frigates or 3 cruisers (instead of 3 frigates or 3 cruisers)




Capital Colony Ship:

Akkan Battleruiser:
- Targeting Uplink: Now give 5%/10%/15% DPS increase in addition to already existing bonuses

Jarrasul Evacuator:
- Colonize: Now add 100% population grow increasese for 240/480/720s in addition to already existing bonuses

Reply #608 from Sins Forums Top

You're missing the point. I agree that doing this is the best course of action, but the math I just showed demonstrated that the correct carrier to choose to counter a capital carrier is another capital carrier. This is the problem, the carrier caps are blatantly outperforming carrier cruisers at level 1.
End of quote

This was the reason we buffed them now you want to buff carriers back to the way they were?Your math is flawed in that it only works for maybe the 2nd cap.From there on the cost to get caps skyrockets.The other problem you have is the first cap is free.How can you balanc the cost of that?

Reply #609 from Sins Forums Top

@Arthanis: I support most of your suggestions there..  I am still against SC increases as I want that to be a carrier's area of expertise.  I am not for the AM decrease on GRG either, but from what I can tell, I agree on the other ones.

@Carbon: Ahh...  But that would be too easy. ;P  Honestly, I was in the mode of buff counters rather than nerf directly.  But I do believe that knocking down their bonus to heavies and capitals would be a great way to stop them from slaying caps late game...

But then again, you just made capital rushes easier.  Maybe it wouldn't be too easy...  So perhaps you would want to buff flak up to 100% against light and have HC's deal about 25% higher damage to light targets.  That ought to help with the whole Illuminator>Enforcer issue without causing any real problems (as if anyone ever actually build HC's to counter a seige frigate swarm).

Reply #610 from Sins Forums Top

Capitals counter LF better than they counter anything else in the game...?  That Disciples are somewhat useful against capitals very early on is only because Disciples are extremely cost-effective ships.  However, that ships can counter a rush doesn't make them a counter...?

Heavies do more damage to LRF, but also take more.

LRF seem a better choice as the counters to support cruisers.  LF don't have to be as hard a counter to LRF as LRF are to them in the current version.  As it is LF just disappear from the game, unless there are Seekers to support them.  Fighters are vulnerable to flak and also have to counter each other and bombers.

Reply #611 from Sins Forums Top

@Arthanis: I support most of your suggestions there..  I am still against SC increases as I want that to be a carrier's area of expertise.  I am not for the AM decrease on GRG either, but from what I can tell, I agree on the other ones.
End of quote

1. Caps are not specialized, they are "carrier cap", "battlecruiser" only because they ae slightly better in one job then other caps. Nothing justify one ship being super-specialized in one job (excluding colonizers) and keeping it multipurpose unit, while other caps completley suck in this job and are only slightly specialized in other functions.

2. Even with my changes CarrierCaps are still superior in term of SC control - they have both highest number of SC (by far) and best SC supporting abilities.

3. Only non-carrier cap with relatively high SC armament is Support Cap. Why? Because this Caps class is weakest by far, including their relatively weak special powers. Turning them into something between ?Batlecruiser and Carrier is IMO step into good direction.

4. Players need more freedom while choising their 1st/2nd/3rd cap. Buffing SC number on non-carrier caps will give players this freedom, but CarrierCaps will be still best choice (by far) for SC-lovers.

Reply #612 from Sins Forums Top

This was the reason we buffed them now you want to buff carriers back to the way they were?
End of quote

Actually, I didn't support the carrier cap buff.  Look at the old PSCF, I'm listed under "nay" for increased number of squads.

Secondly, it is COMPLETELY inappropriate for a level 1 capital ship to outperform an equal cost in equivalent frigates, especially carrier caps since fighters are the only counter to bombers.  I can accept a high level carrier cap totally outperforming cruisers of equivalent command cost, but not a level 1.

Capital ships have lots of other bonuses beyond their strike craft capabilities.  They are faster, they are harder to kill, they aren't nearly vulnerable to light frigate spam (the obvious counter to carrier cruisers), they have their own attack, they can bombard planets, and they have powerful special abilities at their disposal.

Something has to give, they aren't just better than carrier cruisers, they're in another league entirely.  It's only later on when crew upgrades become exorbitantly expensive that carrier cruisers shine.  This wouldn't be as much of a problem if other capital ship classes were of similar power and if bombers had another counter.  However, the problem is that the only counter to bombers is fighters, and those come from carriers, which is locking us into a carrier-cap start.  The colony caps and a few exceptional alternatives (Marza and Kortul) are the only capital ships that compete with carriers for the choice of first capital ship.  I've seen some Vulkoras rushing, as well, but if you scout and see it coming you can intercept it with... sigh... a carrier cap loaded with bombers.

 

Your math is flawed in that it only works for maybe the 2nd cap
End of quote

First of all, my math was overly generous.  I didn't count the free carrier cap (on the unrealistic presumption that your first capital ship somehow negates it), only the second cap.  If you lead with a colony cap or a battleship cap, then you have to counter both of these carriers strike craft with cruisers.  If you like I'll append some more math to show you what happens if you get hit by 3 carrier caps and don't have a carrier of your own.  Again, the hard facts:

Capital Ship (1st):  0 to build, 0 for crew upgrade
Capital Ship (2nd):  6000 to build, 1500 for crew upgrade
Capital Ship (3rd):  6000 to build, 2900 for crew upgrade
Drone Host:  3300 to build, 1300 to research
TEC/Vasari Carrier: 2100 to build, 2000 to research, 1500 for third lab

So now let's do the math against three carrier caps.  Let's presume, as before, you need 6 strike craft to counter each of them.  That's 6 drone hosts or 9 carriers for the other factions.  Total cost:

6 Drone Hosts:  21300 effective credits
9 TEC/Vasari Carriers:  22400 effective credits
3 Capital Ship:  16400 effective credits

Yes, if you ignore the free capital ship it works for Advent and marginally for TEC:

4 Drone Hosts:  14500 effective credits
6 TEC/Vasari Carriers:  16100 effective credits
2 Capital Ship:  16400 effective credits

However, my point still stands: in the best of situations this only manages to match what the capital ships have in terms of strike craft power.  Those capital ships have other benefits as well.  Moreover, they have better operational range because they don't have antimatter concerns and they're harder to counter with a simple light frigate spam.

Let me remind you: you need to COUNTER bombers with fighters.  The only cost-effective counter to carrier caps?  Other carrier caps.  THAT IS THE PROBLEM.

Reply #613 from Sins Forums Top

OOOrrrr....reduce LRF damage multiplier vs Caps.
End of quote

Agreed.

@Carbon: Ahh... But that would be too easy. Honestly, I was in the mode of buff counters rather than nerf directly. But I do believe that knocking down their bonus to heavies and capitals would be a great way to stop them from slaying caps late game...

But then again, you just made capital rushes easier. Maybe it wouldn't be too easy... So perhaps you would want to buff flak up to 100% against light and have HC's deal about 25% higher damage to light targets. That ought to help with the whole Illuminator>Enforcer issue without causing any real problems (as if anyone ever actually build HC's to counter a seige frigate swarm).
End of quote

This "nerf" would really only put them inline with LF in terms of damage to heavies and capital. This would actually help early game in my opinion more than late game. LRF are cheap enough and get benefits from weapon research that would still make them quite deadly in mass late game.

Also, Capital rushes can be countered by LF as stated by Darvin3 above. I don't really see a slight nerf to a Tier 2/3 tech against tier 5 tech and capitals causing capital ship rushes to become easier. Flak don't need to be buffed in this case as Scout's already do 200% damage to LRF. Heavies would be indiretly buffed with this as LRF would do 25% less damage so no need for a damage buff of Heavies to light armor. This would indeed help with Illuminator->Enforcer encounters as Heavies would be receiving 25% less damage.

Reply #614 from Sins Forums Top

First of all, my math was overly generous. I didn't count the free carrier cap (on the unrealistic presumption that your first capital ship somehow negates it), only the second cap. If you lead with a colony cap or a battleship cap, then you have to counter both of these carriers strike craft with cruisers. If you like I'll append some more math to show you what happens if you get hit by 3 carrier caps and don't have a carrier of your own. Again, the hard facts:

Capital Ship (1st): 0 to build, 0 for crew upgrade

Capital Ship (2nd): 6000 to build, 1500 for crew upgrade

Capital Ship (3rd): 6000 to build, 2900 for crew upgrade

Drone Host: 3300 to build, 1300 to research

TEC/Vasari Carrier: 2100 to build, 2000 to research, 1500 for third lab

So now let's do the math against three carrier caps. Let's presume, as before, you need 6 strike craft to counter each of them. That's 6 drone hosts or 9 carriers for the other factions. Total cost:

6 Drone Hosts: 21300 effective credits

9 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 22400 effective credits

3 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits

Yes, if you ignore the free capital ship it works for Advent and marginally for TEC:

4 Drone Hosts: 14500 effective credits

6 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 16100 effective credits

2 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits

However, my point still stands: in the best of situations this only manages to match what the capital ships have in terms of strike craft power. Those capital ships have other benefits as well. Moreover, they have better operational range because they don't have antimatter concerns and they're harder to counter with a simple light frigate spam.

Let me remind you: you need to COUNTER bombers with fighters. The only cost-effective counter to carrier caps? Other carrier caps. THAT IS THE PROBLEM.
End of quote

Nice. I'll add another interesting stat to this. Raw Time to build based on tech, research and unit. Lab(63s), Carrier Research(58s), Fleet1(35s), Capital Research(46s), Capital(63s), Carrier(58s), LF(20s).

6 Drone Hosts: 567 seconds (2 labs, Carrier Research, Fleet Research, 6 units)
9 TEC/Vasari: 804 seconds (3 labs, Carrier Research, Fleet Research, 9 units)
3 Capital Ship: 442 seconds (2 labs, Fleet Research, 2 Capital Research, 3 units)
3 Capital Ships + 16 LF: 762 seconds

4 Drone Hosts: 451 seconds
6 TEC/Vasari: 630 seconds
2 Capital Ship: 270 seconds (or again 442 seconds if you built a colonizer for first cap)

Time to 1st unit:
1st drone host: 242 seconds
1st TEC/Vasari: 305 seconds
1st free cap: 63 seconds

Reply #615 from Sins Forums Top

6 Drone Hosts: 21300 effective credits

9 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 22400 effective credits

3 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits

Yes, if you ignore the free capital ship it works for Advent and marginally for TEC:

4 Drone Hosts: 14500 effective credits

6 TEC/Vasari Carriers: 16100 effective credits

2 Capital Ship: 16400 effective credits
End of quote

 

So 6 hosts is 18 squads and 3 caps is a max at level 1 12(haly)or 9 for others.2 caps is 8 squads while 4 hosts is 12.Seems carriers outperform caps in squads.Level 3 gets another 1-2 squads but is another what 2750 in crew training for each ship?So 21300 for carriers and 24650 for caps to equal in sc.Also I dont think the first cap should count in your math cause its freeeeeeeee.You get no free carriers so why is that included?

Reply #616 from Sins Forums Top

Nice. I'll add another interesting stat to this. Raw Time to build based on tech, research and unit. Lab(63s), Carrier Research(58s), Fleet1(35s), Capital Research(46s), Capital(63s), Carrier(58s), LF(20s).
End of quote

Keep in mind that many of these can be done simultaneously.  Nothing is stopping you from researching both drone hosts and fleet at the same time.  As well, the bottom line may end up being cost anyways, and if that's the case all those numbers go out the window.

If you want to pursue those metrics further (because that is potentially interesting info, you're right) you should actually try these build orders and time yourself to see how long it takes to make that many units.  This will give a more realistic representation without having to crunch income and independent build queues mathematically.

My hunch is that $$$ will be the bottom line of how quickly you can get these things out the door.  I remember the harshest carrier rush I ever took was when the enemy had 3 neutral extractors in a well next to their homeworld... lots of extra income right off the bat.

 

So 6 hosts is 18 squads and 3 caps is a max at level 1 12(haly)or 9 for others
End of quote

Yup, because a capital squad > cruiser squad.  In practice I find six cruiser squads to every capital carrier is needed for proper suppression.  I've tried getting away with fewer, but it doesn't work very well.  You will indeed be able to force the enemy to stop making bombers, but they'll swap to fighters and keep up the push.  You've managed to negate the threat of bombers, but the carrier caps are still a major threat.  They're slowly winning the strike craft war (your inferior cruiser carriers are only buying time).  This is why you need to outnumber them, to actually suppress strike craft levels so you can take advantage of air supremacy.

Given all the other advantages of carrier capital ships, carrier cruisers by comparison are not performing well enough.  I think in all the number crunching you've lost my point in the absurdity of it all:  the carrier cruisers are just sitting ducks other than their function as carriers, the capital ships are still very active and dangerous after you've negated their strike craft.  This is why there isn't an argument here.  Even if you do succeed in winning the SC battle, you've still got a capital ship with capital ship stats and abilities to deal with.

 

Also I dont think the first cap should count in your math cause its freeeeeeeee.  You get no free carriers so why is that included?
End of quote

Exactly, you get no free carrier cruisers, but you DO get a free carrier cap.  It's still there, deploying bombers (or fighters, as it may be) and it needs to be matched with your own strike craft.

My whole underlying point is that the only way to do it is with a carrier cap of your own.  Carrier cruisers just aren't up to the job cost-wise, and the other capital ships are sitting ducks without strike craft support.

Reply #617 from Sins Forums Top

Well... If fighters/bombers are too game-dominating maybe we should think of buffing Flak Figates...

And I am 100% sure LRF should be very effectively countered by HC, LF, Caps and fighters at close range

I was always thinking long range units are supossed to be long-range fire support, not main attack units able to annihilate evrything at every distance (I still support idea of reducing LRF accurancy vs close targets).

 

Reply #618 from Sins Forums Top

Well... If fighters/bombers are too game-dominating maybe we should think of buffing Flak Figates...
End of quote

Problem is primarily early game with carrier caps.

 

As for LRF, range means very little in this game unless you're attacking stationary targets or are protected by a starbase or turret.  In any other situation, covering ground is trivial and the longer-ranged frigate gets maybe one free volley.  If you made them routinely beaten by virtually every other combat unit, LRF would be a niche unit rarely used at all.

 

 

Reply #619 from Sins Forums Top

Problem is primarily early game with carrier caps.
End of quote

 

Then there is very easy solution to this situation: Reduce number of Strikecrafts squads on lvl1 Carrier caps by 1 [without changing max number of squads on lvl 10 carer]. It will not afect mid-high level carriercaps, but lvl1 carrcaps will get Strikecrafts power reduced by 33%...

 

 

 

As for LRF, range means very little in this game unless you're attacking stationary targets or are protected by a starbase or turret.  In any other situation, covering ground is trivial and the longer-ranged frigate gets maybe one free volley.  If you made them routinely beaten by virtually every other combat unit, LRF would be a niche unit rarely used at all.
End of quote

 

Then make them more specialized by giving them more range. Let say:

LRF range increased by 33%

LRF have 50% chance of missing their target vs targets at 50% of their maximum range and below

Reply #620 from Sins Forums Top

If you want to pursue those metrics further (because that is potentially interesting info, you're right) you should actually try these build orders and time yourself to see how long it takes to make that many units. This will give a more realistic representation without having to crunch income and independent build queues mathematically.

My hunch is that $$$ will be the bottom line of how quickly you can get these things out the door. I remember the harshest carrier rush I ever took was when the enemy had 3 neutral extractors in a well next to their homeworld... lots of extra income right off the bat.
End of quote

Ran some quick tests on this...

Without touching the black market it took less than 15 minutes (game time) to build 3 capital carriers and 11 LF. The third capital carrier completed with the 11th LF.
Utilizing the black market it took 10 minutes (game time) flat to build 3 capital carriers and zero LF.

Utilizing the black market to keep production going took 14 minutes (game time) to build 9 TEC carriers (scuttled the cap factory for third mil lab).

Having neutral extractors nearby would definately help with a early rush of any unit type.

Reply #621 from Sins Forums Top

Again:

What do you think of reducing lvl1 carriercaps number of SC squads by 1 (without touching lvl10 max SC number)?

IMO it will make cost effective countering carriercaps MUCH easier.

Reply #622 from Sins Forums Top

Last version, carriers did have only 2 squads at level 1.  The popular consensus from players was that this was too few, and they got an additional squad in the last patch.  Your idea is basically to roll-back this change.

Reply #623 from Sins Forums Top

Last version, carriers did have only 2 squads at level 1.  The popular consensus from players was that this was too few, and they got an additional squad in the last patch.  Your idea is basically to roll-back this change.
End of quote

Only at lvl1 carriers cap. I don't want to change alredy existing maximum of available SC squads, I just want to transfer one SC squad from lvl1 Cariercap to one of the further cap levels. Something like:

lvl1: 2 SC Squads

lvl2: 3 SC Squads

lvl3: 4 SC Squads

lvl4: 5 SC Squads

lvl6: 6 SC Squads

lvl8: 7 SC Squads

lvl10: 8 SC Squads

 

Clear? :) Only lvl1 CarrierCaps will be nerfed.

 

 

 

 

IMO:

Carrier caps:

- Start with 2 SC

- additional SC at levels: 2,3,4,6,8,10

- 8 SC max

 

Battleships / Planet Killers / Colonizers:

- Start with 1 SC

- Additional SC at levels: 5,10

- 3 SC max

 

Supporters:

- Start with 1 SC

- Additional SC at levels: 3,5,8,10

- 5 SC max

Reply #624 from Sins Forums Top

I've read the points made by Darvin, Arthanis, MindsEye, etc.  Some of my input.

I don't have a problem with the strength of capital ships. I think they were too weak for too long.  I'm glad they were buffed (including carrier capitals).

I don't have a problem with capital ship rushes (I'm not saying I don't have a problem HANDLING them, I'm saying I don't have a problem with the fact that this strat is allowed or exists).  Note however that the strength of this strat is dependent on mapsize, number of players, and game speed.  Crowded rush maps, fast speed, online MP = strong capship rush strat.  But 1v1 small random map?  Or huge uncrowded maps?  It's not so viable.

I don't have a problem with the number of strikecraft deployed by carrier caps, nor the strength of carrier caps in general.  I don't have a problem with carrier caps outperforming carrier cruisers.  Why?  Because I support the idea of strong capships.  Capships SHOULD be able to outperform cruisers.  If it was the intent of the devs to move capships from "crapships" to a more leading role - I'm cool with that.  Carrier cap dominance only goes so far, though.  Obviously you can't build 40 or 50, like you can with carrier cruisers.  So carrier caps are superior, but not spammable, so they dominate early.  Cruisers will provide the overwhelming bulk later game.  I'm cool with that.  (Having said that, I'm not saying that I am opposed to adjustments to carrier cruisers or hangers, if needed - I'm not.  I'm just saying the principle that carrier caps outperform carrier cruisers doesn't bother me).

 

Where any problems lie, in my opinion, is with balancing caps race to race.  As a hypothetical example, if I am going to get rushed by sovas or halcyons, I want to know that I have an answer as vasari, whatever that answer is.  If my answer is supposed to be skirantra, and that answer is lacking, then buff it.  Again, this was just a hypothetical.

Darvin has made good points about the only way to counter bombers from carrier caps early is to build your own carrier cap.  I agree with this.  My first ovservation is, it seems this is only a problem with the fast crowded MP games.  Obviously the problem doesn't exist on slow games with large uncrowded maps, or with SP.  So should we be balancing the game around the way it is played online?  I think not.  My second observation is, should the problem be solved by buffing other caps?  I think so.  There is lots of potential here, i.e. sheer toughness and firepower of buffed battleships, a buffed flakburst or jam weapons or magentize, etc.  Finally, if a nerf to carrier caps is to be considered (not saying it should be), I think what would do the job is have killed capship strikecraft rebuild more slowly.

I think the buffed caps patch was a big step in the right direction.  More caps are being used now than before.  I think some small game tweaks here and there (hangers, antimatter, etc), plus needed buffs to other capships, will move the game further along.  And if we can ever get Advent straightened out, the game might actually approach some semblance of balance.

Reply #625 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with cap carriers compared to cruisers is that SC building with caps is independant of AM and cruisers are dependant on AM.  This means that caps are always building their SC at optimal rates while cruisers are hampered once their squads are destroyed because of AM issues likely at that point.  I am not suggesting switching it over to being dependant on AM because this would really screw up any abilities used by caps when you may prefer the abilities to the SC squads.  It should be clear why cap carriers are so stronger than cruisers in regards to their SC.  Plus the caps have other weapons and abilities that make them something more than just sitting ducks even after their SC are negated.  When you look at the fact that for 2 advent drone hosts with 6 AM squads and nothing else you can have 1 halcyon that can have 4 AM independant squads at level 1 with progressively more hull/shields,SC, weapons, and abilties on the actual ship, its a no-brainer.  Carrier caps are OP at present IMO.  I do not support changing modifiers on lrf to caps either.  Manage your caps better if you don't want them to die and remember that repair bays are your friend.

[_]-Greyfox