Deceiver_0 Deceiver_0

NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

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NEW Patch Stat Changes Forums [NEW TOPIC: CAPITAL SHIPS!! 1/2/10]

For Sins Version 1.19 and Entrenchment 1.05

from Sins Forums

Hey everyone its that time again, lets compile some data!

This is a post that I will update regularly to give the DEVS a better idea of what people think should be done to stats in the next patch. This is ONLY for patches, no new ships or elaborate concepts for the next expansion. This is for dealing with peoples’ concerns about balance. If there’s a balance idea you have that’s not on here, post it and I’ll put it up for voting if it seems valid. I love the fact that ICO pays attention to the forums and what people suggest, I’d like to make it easier for them. The idea is to have all ideas posted straight forward and ranked so the DEVS don’t have to sift through pages and pages to find popular ideas. SP and MP players are both welcome to comment. Post yay or nay for any idea you like or dislike (be specific please) or say no fix needed. If you’d like I’ll also insert specific values you may come up with. Some votes will be taken from other threads.

BUGS

Since the last patches release, the main complaint I've seen on the forums are in the form of bugs, so I'm compiling a list of the known ones, and will update the list as more are discovered. Some of the early bugs were fixed in the hotfix, and perhaps (fingers crossed) the Devs will release another hotfix to address the rest, rather than a whole new patch. So here it goes:

- Nano Weapons Jammer autocast AI casts continuously

- AM Recharger autocast AI casts continuously

- Illuminator causes mystery damage between shots

- Phasic Trap research Level 2 still has no effect.

- Orkulus Phase Stabilizer does not work on stars.

- Random Map Bugs:

              - Single Phase lane starts

              - No connected Asteroids

              - Overlapping Gravity Wells

- Backwards Dunov Icon

- Pathing Improvements (specifically dealing with stationary obstacles)

- Orkulus commands cancelled when trade ships dock

- No wave cannon sounds on Kortul

- Resource extractors on HWs produce income before they're constructed.

- PAWELOS BUG HUNTING

- Siege Militia/pirates run from turrets before construction is complete (exploit).

 

CAPITAL SHIPS

This will be a large section that will continue to evolve through out the life of this thread so check back often for new topics. Consensus seems to think now that carrier caps have all been buffed, many of the other caps need to be brought up to par with them.

Buff Battleship Class(Kol/Radiance/Kortul)

                          Increase hp/shields/armor?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile               MindsEye                 Swordsalmon
                                                      Hrabandur                CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                   Warlord Mike           Onigiri

                                     Nay-

                          Increase DPS?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(20-25%)  Darvin3                Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                 Swordsalmon           CallenExile
                                                      Hrabandur               CrazyElectron           Ryat
                                                       Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           Onigiri

                          Buff Gauss Rail Gun?-

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz(800/1200/1600)  Darvin3       Deceiver_0
                                                      CallenExile              MindsEye                  Swordsalmon
                                                      CrazyElectron           Ryat                        Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-            Hrabandur              Onigiri

                          Re-work Animosity?

                                     Yay-           Volt_Cruelerz           Darvin3                   Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye                Swordsalmon            Ryat
                                                      Arthanis                 Warlord Mike

                                     Nay-           CallenExile              Hrabandur               Onigiri

         No Change needed-                    CoBBQ

Colonizer Caps(Akkan/Progenitor/Jarrasul)

                        Buff Jarrasul Evacuator's colonize?

                                    Yay-            Darvin3               Volt_Cruelerz              Deceiver_0
                                                      Swordsalmon       Agent of Kharma           Hrabandur
                                                      Ryat                   Arthanis                     Warlord Mike
                                                      Onigiri 

                                    Nay-            CallenExile           MindsEye

        No Change needed-

Carrier Class Caps(Sova/Halcyon/Skirantra)

                       Buff Scramble Bombers?

                                  Yay-              Darvin3              Volt_Cruelerz               Deceiver_0
                                                      MindsEye            Swordsalmon               Agent of Kharma
                                                      Hrabandur          Ryat                           Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike 

                                  Nay-              CallenExile         Onigiri

                      Buff Replicate Forces?

                                  Yay-               Arthanis            Warlord Mike                 Onigiri

                                  Nay-

        No Change needed-

Buff Support Class Caps(Dunov/Antorak/Rapture/Revelation)

                      Increase AM regen?

                                 Yay-               Darvin3               Hrabandur               CrazyElectron
                                                      Ryat                   Juletron                  Arthanis
                                                      Warlord Mike        Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               CallenExile           Mindseye                 Onigiri

                     Increase maximum AM?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Darvin3                    Hrabandur
                                                      Mindseye            Volt_Cruelerz             CrazyElectron
                                                      Juletron              Arthanis                   Warlord Mike

                                 Nay-               Ryat                  Swordsalmon            Onigiri

                     Increase Dunov EMP range?

                                 Yay-               CallenExile          Mindseye                  Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      CrazyElectron      Ryat                        Juletron
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike             Swordsalmon

                                 Nay-               Hrabandur          Onigiri

                     Allow Dunov shield restore to be self targetable?

                                Yay-                Mindseye           CrazyElectron             Juletron
                                                      Arthanis            Deceiver_0

                                Nay-                Ryat                 Volt_Cruelerz            Warlord Mike
                                                      Swordsalmon      Onigiri

                     Allow Antoraks subversion to effect SC?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye           Juletron                    Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis            Warlord Mike             Onigiri

                               Nay-                 Ryat                Swordsalmon

                     Buff Phase out hull?

                               Yay-                 Mindseye            Juletron                   Volt_Cruelerz
                                                      Arthanis             Warlord Mike            Swordsalmon
                                                       

                               Nay-                 Ryat                 Onigiri

         No Change Needed-

 

 

DELIVERANCE ENGINE

Without a doubt the weakest of the superweapons, there is little point in seeking it. For too long its been sitting in a dusty box on the shelf, to weak to be worth its tremendous costs. Lets consider some buffs to at least make it functional as a weapon. The one buff thats been suggested that I like is an instant allegiance drop, which will aid Advent in cultural takeovers of border planets and with enough, could possibly overthrow an enemy planet (though Id say it should require many more than the fearsome novalith)

Buff Deliverance engine-

                         Cause an instant decrease in allegiance?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0                Kitkun                    Greyfox2
                                                     anteachtaire              Mow Mow                Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur                 Arthanis

                                    Nay-           Howdidudothat

No buff needed-                                Qu4r                        Darvin3                  CallenExile        

 

 

EMPIRE TREE

As I feel that the devs decision to put "Phase Jumping" ships at the top of the tree was purposeful and not a bug, I think most of us agree that the constant movement it creates (especially with phase monitoring!) makes the empire tree difficult to use. Move it to the bottom?

Adjust Empire Tree-

                         Move "Phase Jumping Ships" to the bottom of the tree?

                                    Yay-           Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  SwordSalmon
                                                     JSW_Ballz                Mindseye                Agent of Kharma
                                                     Ryat                        52500                    Mow Mow
                                                     Fuzzy Logic              EadTaes                 Warlord Mike
                                                     Hrabandur               Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Arthanis

                                    Nay-           CallenExile

 

FIGHTERS

Some are unsatisfied with fighters with regards to surviving flak. I urge everyone to read the points of debate between Mindseye and myself starting on page 10-11, to get a better understanding of why fighters should or should not be adjusted. Below are a few suggestions

Buff Fighters-

                        Increase armor/hp?

                                  Yay-             Mindseye                 Mow Mow                Greyfox2
                                                     Qu4r                       Arthanis          

                                  Nay-             Deceiver_0               Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                     Top Vasari               Warlord Mike           EadTaes
                                                     Hrabandur                Howdidudothat        -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician       Agent of Kharma      CallenExile
                                                     CrazyElectron 

MAPS

Raging Amish has proposed some modest changes to maps that I think we could possibly have implemented with enough support, so lets get a vote to see what people think of them. Magnetic clouds are huge wastes of space as their is nothing terribly beneficial about them. People with ability heavy fleets and caps would opt to fight you somewhere else (and can do so without much penalty). They make awful chokepoints because you can't put starbases or mines there, and they offer no economic value. I'd like to hear some ideas on how to improve them (beyond removing them completely from the game as RA has suggested). If we can come up with some good ones I'll put them up for a vote. In the meantime, I think one should at least be able to construct Starbases here, so I'll put that up as a topic. Also, all too often we see Ice and Volcanic planets  (which require research to colonize) offering you only 2 resource mines for the trouble of colonizing them. Personally I don't think that PLANETS should have less resources to offer than an asteroid. What do you think?

Magnetic Clouds-

                          Allow starbase deployment?

                                    Yay-            Deceiver_0              Darvin3                  Hrabandur
                                                      Juletron                  Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike
                                                      DirtySanchezz          Kitkun                    Qu4r
                                                      CrazyElectron

                                    Nay-            Ryat                       CallenExile              EadTaes
                                                      DesConnor              -Ue_Carbon             Chaotic Magician

Ice/Volcanic planets-

                          Change minimum mines to 3 (currently 2)?

                                   Yay-             Deceiver_0              Swordsalmon           Ryat
                                                      Darvin3                   Juletron                  Mindseye
                                                      Mow Mow                 EadTaes                 JSW_Ballz
                                                      Howdidudothat         Warlord Mike          Kitkun
                                                      Ovi_187                  -Ue_Carbon            Chaotic Magician
                                                      CrazyElectron 

                                   Nay-             CallenExile              DesConnor              DirtySanchezz
                                                      Hrabandur               Agent of Kharma      Qu4r

No Changes needed-

 

 

 

ORKULUS STARBASE

This topic is going to be heavy on the debate, and will likely be updated several times with NEW votable options throughout the life of this thread. Now, I think it's safe to say that we're beyond the point of the DEVS making a Vasari Assault cruiser and making the Orky stationary. So if thats what you think should happen thats fine, but it would be more useful for everyone if you hada second opinion on the Orky and voted on the issues below.

Nerf Orkulus-

                           Increase build penalty in hostile wells? (currently 2.25x unupgraded)

                                     Yay-          Greyfox2                   Raging Amish(3x)   Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Deceiver_0                 Cykur                    Howdidudothat
                                                     Top Vasari                  Swordsalmon         Ryat
                                                     anteachtaire               LordMechanoid       JSW_Ballz
                                                     Warlord Mike              Agent of Kharma    DesConnor
                                                     DirtySanchezz             Kitkun                   Qu4r
                                                     52500                        Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Chaotic Magician         Qu4r                    CallenExile
                                                    

Other-

                           SB constructors trigger phase monitoring alarm? ("Hostile forces are inbound")

                                    Yay-          Mindseye                    Deceiver_0            Howdidudothat
                                                    Top Vasari                   Cykur                   LordMechanoid
                                                    Warlord Mike               DirtySanchezz        Kitkun
                                                    52500                         Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Chaotic Magician           CallenExile           CrazyElectron
                                                    Arthanis 

                                    Nay-          JSW_Ballz                   DesConnor           Qu4r

 

 

SCOUT FRIGATES

A hotly debated topic right now on the forums, none can deny their increased presence on the MP battlefield. As the cheapest buildable unit in the game, as well as being tier 0, its utility against long ranged frigates has been thoroughly exploited. The question remains, is it balanced? This topic will be split into two sections, a general section for a blanket nerf and a more specific section for interspecies balance. The reason for this is that some think scouts need to be weaker in general, whike other think they need to be balanced on par wtih TEC scouts.

Nerf Scouts-

                          Decrease hp/shields?

                                     Yay-

                                     Nay-          DirtySanchezz            Cykur                Arthanis

                          Decrease DPS?

                                     Yay-          DirtySanchezz            Greyfox2           Mindseye
                                                     Arthanis 

                                     Nay-          Cykur

                          Increase Cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Mindseye                   Cykur                 Swordsalmon

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz             Arthanis

No Nerf Needed-                              Deceiver_0                 Wingflier            Howdidudothat
                                                     Darvin3                      Ryat                 CallenExile
                                                     Chaotic Magician        Agent of Kharma  Sivcorp
                                                     52500                       JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                     Kitkun                       Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                     Qu4r                        CrazyElectron

Balance Scouts-

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels Hp/shields/armor?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier             Mow Mow
                                                    Swordsalmon              Darvin3               Ryat
                                                    Greyfox2                    52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Top Vasari           LordMechanoid
                                                    Kitkun                        Hrabandur          -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                          CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                                     Nay-         DirtySanchezz            Howdidudothat      CallenExile
                                                   

                          Decrease Seeker Vessels DPS?

                                     Yay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz      Howdidudothat
                                                     Greyfox2                   Hrabandur          Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                    Darvin3               Ryat
                                                     CallenExile                52500                 JSW_Ballz
                                                     Cykur                       LordMechanoid     Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                 CrazyElectron       Arthanis

                          Decrease Jikara Navigator cost/supply?

                                     Yay-         Deceiver_0                 Wingflier              Howdidudothat
                                                    CallenExile                 52500                  LordMechanoid
                                                    Hrabandur                  Qu4r 

                                     Nay-         Swordsalmon              DirtySanchezz       Darvin3
                                                    Ryat                          Chaotic Magician   JSW_Ballz
                                                    Cykur                        Greyfox2             Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon                CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                          Increase Jikara Navigator DPS?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                   Swordsalmon         Howdidudothat
                                                    Ryat                         Chaotic Magician     52500
                                                    JSW_Ballz                  Hrabandur            -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                         CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                     Nay-         Wingflier                   DirtySanchezz        Darvin3
                                                    CallenExile                Cykur                   Greyfox2
                                                    LordMechanoid           Kitkun   

                          Increase Jikara Navigator hp/shields?

                                     Yay-         Mow Mow                  Darvin3                  Ryat
                                                    Chaotic Magician         Sivcorp                   Top Vasari
                                                    Kitkun                      Hrabandur              -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                        CrazyElectron           Arthanis

                                     Nay-         CallenExile               JSW_Ballz               Cykur
                                                    LordMechanoid

No Balance Needed-                         Agent of Kharma      EadTaes                 DesConnor

 

 

RAVASTRA SKIRMISHERS

While the most expensive light frigate in both resources and supply, these ships have the worst DPS per supply. With the recent buff to all light frigs, Cobalts and Disciples are now delivering on the tasks they're meant to, yet skirmishers are still struggling. So what should be done?

Buff Skirmishers-

                            Increase DPS?
                                        
                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500 
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier              Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                     Ryat                   Sivcorp
                                                    DirtySanchezz             GreyFox2            Raging Amish
                                                    CallenExile                 Mindseye            JSW_Ballz
                                                    Warlord Mike              lbgsloan             Mow Mow
                                                    EadTaes                    DesConnor          Kitkun
                                                    Agent of Kharma        Hrabandur           -Ue_Carbon
                                                    Qu4r                       CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                                      Nay-        LordMechanoid

                            Decrease Supply cost?

                                      Yay-        Raging Amish           LordMechanoid      Hrabandur
                                                    Qu4r    

                                      Nay-        Deceiver_0                Darvin3               52500
                                                    Cykur                       Chaotic Magician   Top Vasari
                                                    Howdidudothat           Wingflier             Swordsalmon
                                                    Juletron                    Ryat                    CallenExile                
                                                    Mindseye                  JSW_Ballz            Warlord Mike
                                                    lbgsloan                   Mow Mow              Kitkun
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               CrazyElectron        Arthanis

                            Decrease Resource cost?

                                      Yay-        52500                       Warlord Mike

                                      Nay-        Darvin3                     Cykur                Chaotic Magician  
                                                    Top Vasari                 Howdidudothat    Wingflier
                                                    Swordsalmon             Juletron              Ryat
                                                    DirtySanchezz             Raging Amish     CallenExile
                                                    Mindseye                   JSW_Ballz           LordMechanoid
                                                    lbgsloan                    Kitkun                Hrabandur
                                                    -Ue_Carbon               Qu4r                   Arthanis

                            Adjust Reintegration autocast AI to activate earlier?

                                      Yay-        Deceiver_0               Darvin3               52500
                                                    Chaotic Magician       Top Vasari           Howdidudothat          
                                                    Wingflier                  Swordsalmon       Juletron
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Reply #501 from Sins Forums Top

It depends entirely on how upgraded the starbase is, how upgraded the illums are and what support you have.  SBs in general are a pain to take down with illums if they are fairly well upgraded.  My point is that a lot of times I don't build illums much because they are killed quickly by cap carrier fighters and scouts.  I don't see lrf in general built as much because of this due to this being a popular and effective rush.  In this situation lrf are inefficient and will just lead to the one building lrf dying.  Sure there are some situations where someone does NOT rush carrier caps with LF/scouts and illums get built to the point of spam.  Eventually even the disc/halcyon rushers will switch to illums if the game gets that far. 

On a side note, I thought you were not playing multiplayer anymore because you say it sucked so much, agent.  I tire of seeing you gripe in an unproductive manner so it would be nice if you would refrain from it on this thread.  You have many other threads to make your unproductive griping/comments known.  Productive suggestions or comments are another matter though.

 

[_]-Greyfox

Reply #502 from Sins Forums Top

So, general agreement. 10-20 illums is counterable, 30 will melt a capital ship ridiculously fast, 50 will push you on the defensive regardless of your fleet, and 80 will roll a starbase without trouble. Glad we got that cleared up.
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Actually 80 will prob kill anything of equal size.

Making fighters stronger against illums (and LRF in general) will hit armies with fewer illums harder.
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Not if they get more flak and more fighters.Then their lrf will be protectec.Trick is to make fighters force players to build something other than ilums and win.

Siege of Centauri
Reply #503 from Sins Forums Top

So, general agreement. 10-20 illums is counterable, 30 will melt a capital ship ridiculously fast...
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Just watched replay of a recent game.  How many illums does it take to be a threat to capships?  23.  I lost my cap, then my teammate lost his 2 caps to the same 23 illums, and my teammate was running from them.  3 caps killed from 2 different players in minutes to the same 23 illums.  Can find a few more details here: https://forums.sinsofasolarempire.com/373346/page/2/#2501824

Reply #504 from Sins Forums Top

On a side note, I thought you were not playing multiplayer anymore because you say it sucked so much, agent.
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I said I was extremely careful and judicious about the games I played in, and who I played with, and thus it was extremely difficult for me to get games most of the time.  I also said I had scaled back my involvement in multiplayer.  But I did not say I was not playing multiplayer anymore.

I tire of seeing you gripe in an unproductive manner so it would be nice if you would refrain from it on this thread.
End of quote

I tire of you addressing me at all, in any capacity, ever.

Reply #505 from Sins Forums Top

On a new note whats everyone think about the celio.Its designate is awesome ability but its shield restore sucks at 2.5.I think it should be at least 5.Maybe 10.What do you all think?

Reply #506 from Sins Forums Top

So as far as LRMS go-

Can most of us agree that Anti-medium damage vs Cap ship armor should be reduced? (currently its 75% I believe) Which is the same as Bombers and Heavy Cruisers. Personally I'd like to see Cap ship armor take reduced damage from LRFs(anti-medium) and bombers (anti-v.heavy)from 75% to at least 66% (more than LFS, but less than heavies). Heavy cruisers should stay at 75% IMO because by the time HCs are common, Cap ships should be at higher levels and health and armor upgrades can and should have been purchased. But at the LRF/Bomber level (3 labs) caps are still low leveled and upgrades are likely unpurchased.

 

For Cielos: 5 would be fine, 10 I think is too much, dont forget it also reduces weapon cooldowns by 10%. Embolden Im not incredibly worried about cuz its kinda middle of the road. Its not GREAT, but it isnt terrible IMO either. Its got a quick cooldown and lasts for 60 seconds I think (for a total of 150 extra shields, 300(5) over 60 seconds would be pretty powerful, 600(10) over 60 seconds would be ridiculous). So Cielos have a middle of the road ability and an awesome ability leaving them pretty balanced to me.

 

Reply #507 from Sins Forums Top

The problem with LRF is a matter of scale, not of any static multiplier.  All the LRF, even the infamous illuminator, are fine if their numbers are in the 10-20 range.  In these smaller battles, reducing LRF vs capital ship damage may be a bad thing.  The problem with pointing to heavies is that they do not appear in very great numbers early on.  The problem with pointing to bombers is the best way to deploy them early game is with carrier caps, and the best way to counter them is also with carrier caps (set to fighters instead).  This is only reinforcing the current reliance on carrier-class caps.  I do think that LRF fulfill a very important role with regards to countering capital ships early.

The problem is that this role does not scale very well.  Once you hit the mid-late game and LRF numbers grow very large, they just melt through capital ships like butter.  We need a solution that scales well, that keeps capital ships alive in the late-game and keeps their counter functional in the early-game.  I don't think tweaking the armour type modifiers is going to achieve this.

A Cielo buff sounds like a good idea.

Reply #508 from Sins Forums Top

Researchable?  Idk..  I made another suggestion, amending Agent's idea for capping FF damage, but I don't like it.  It would solve the problem, but only with tremendous sacrifices to the way the game is played, and I hate the idea.  It would work, but my idea would cause so many issues that I don't think it would be worth it.

At this point, I think the only [realistic] option is to create a new bracket for capital research under the defense tree or something...  At first the upgrades would be small boosts to health and whatnot, but the later ones (tier VII and VIII) would give boosts such as a weapons bank increase.  That would help them cope with late game swarms of LRF.  Also, these upgrades would have have to be moderately cheap.  If not, no one would buy them and as such, capitals will become worthless things.

Really, I see no [working] option aside from this.

Reply #509 from Sins Forums Top

Ok, I see your point. Then what would you recommend? Perhaps a larger increase in stats at higher levels? Maybe an increase in max shield mitigation past lvl 6? The trick would be to buff them late game but not to the point where they're OP. THe probelm I have with the huge LRF fleet arguement is that they aren't extremely common for TEC or Vasari. TEC and Vasari fleets favor diversification especially in late game as the counters for lrfs for those two races function properly. Illuminators counters do not work properly so you do see large numbers of them. When the illuminators bug is fixed, im hoping we'll see more diversification in Advent fleets, which will sap the need for a major Cap ship late game boost ( though they'll probably still need a smaller one)

By the way to all the MP players, I'd recommend, if you haven't in awhile, playing a nice long SP game once in awhile to gain a little perspective. I played a nice long SP game over the last couple of days and it reminded me of the SP dynamic.

Reply #510 from Sins Forums Top

Okay, not necessarily a bug, but:

The color of the progress bar for TEC frigates being built needs to be changed.  THe other 2 are fine, but unless you are at max fleet capacity, you can't really see the yellow on yellow unless you look really close.

I had another one, but i don't remember what it was anymore...also TEC tho...and i think i think of this every time i play.  I'll have to write it down next time i guess.

-Exile(\/)

Edit-  also, and i know i may sound like an asshole/moron here, but how long could it take to isolate the illum's damage bug?  It's really messing with gameplay for me.  I am steering clear of advent all around, just because i don't want to exploit, or be exploited by, the bug.

If it's more difficult than i think to fix, someone please correct me, and i appologize.  But it's been there for too long i think, and i don't recall seeing a GM/Dev/Support?anyone in authority make a comment on it.

 

Reply #511 from Sins Forums Top

Its easy to find and fix, the devs know about it, my guess is that theyre so busy with getting Diplomacy ready that patching entrenchment for the MP people isnt at the top of their priority list. They'll get to it I'm sure, we'll just have to be patient. In the meantime I'd recommend making some games with "NO ADVENT" in the title and keep it strictly between Vasari and TEC.

Reply #512 from Sins Forums Top

  But it effects both SP and MP people, and is absolutely ruining gameplay.  I understand that they are busy, but you'd think they could put one person on such a massive, and easily fixed problem.  It's made Advent unplayable.  Unless your opponent uses advent.  Though this isn't even a real fix, just a compromise.  Nobody in their right mind would play against them in MP right now, and i feel like i'm cheating if i use them in SP.

-Exile(\/)

Reply #513 from Sins Forums Top

Again, patience is key. Try playing a No advent game if its ruining the gameplay for you.

Reply #514 from Sins Forums Top

Perhaps..  I don't know..  I suppose high level scaling would work as well, though due to a lack of resource input, it might be too good.  If we scale them, then idk..  You would just about have to make it special.  Early game, capitals are just about right IMO.  Late game is when ff starts shredding them.  We need a way to keep them alive, but not invincible.  

For this reason, I don't want you to be able to scare the daylights out of an enemy by suddenly bringing in a level 10 Kortul that you have been running around colonizing on a large map.  One capital ship should not constitute a fleet.  A level 10 capital should be very powerful, but it should not be invincible.  Probably unupgraded SB is about the cap as far as health and shields go, but even that is not enough.  Carrier spam can take down even the heaviest SB's with little effort at all.  If you applied the same principle to capitals, then you end up with the same result.

Aim enough guns at something, and it is going to go boom.  Or as one of the students in my Spanish III class once said, "If you get enough los boomos, anything will blow up."  The point remains.  And this point is commons sense, but how do you control it?

Late game (should you go with the idea of scaling), you will have an elect super-capital fleet that will be invincible and be able to stand against Illuminator spams, but any new capitals you attempt to build will get shredded.  The "age" gap will be monstrous and should you lose your level 8-10 capitals, nothing you could do could save you.

This is why I suggest researchables.  They are static, not dynamic like level scaling.  This way, getting a new cap doesn't mean that it will be blasted within 2 seconds of coming in range.  It still has a shot and will give you a range of capital ship levels far wider than that which we currently have.

Reply #515 from Sins Forums Top

There are already researchables, in the form of health, armor, and shield upgrades. Yes they apply to all ships, but they still apply to Caps, and they still make them harder to kill. The more I think of it, the more I'm liking an increase in max mitigation, maybe to around 75-80%. Perhaps it could increase with level starting at lvl 1 and increasing 1-2% per level. Late game, new caps need levels purchased to survive anyway, and purchasing up to level 4 could put them with a around a 70% max mitigation to begin with. At the very least, higher level caps could take a FF beating for longer, allowing for more time to heal or retreat.

 

Reply #516 from Sins Forums Top

But your 30% boost in armor is negated by the Illum's 30% boost in beam damage.

I heard recently that capitals have mitigation caps that increase with level already, so idk.

Reply #517 from Sins Forums Top

30% boost in beam damage vs 30% more shields, 30% more hp and several more points of armor. One can buff survivability much more than one can buff a single ships damage. Plus you're dealing with much larger numbers with Hp/shields, where as a 30% buff to damage only adds a couple points to the base damage, so I'd say it doesn't quite negate the effects of the upgrades.

Ah your right they do increase per level, starting at 62% max and ending at 72% at level 10. I dont think this is enough. Since its already in place, that will make it easier to buff. Perhaps it should start at 65% and top at 80-85% at level 10. Increasing at a rate of 1.5-2% per level instead of just 1%.

Reply #518 from Sins Forums Top

Just so yall know once you start hitting the ~90% mark for migitation things become unkillable very quick. We learned this with DS. With the changed Cap stats and the Advent bonuses to migitation you had unkillable Advent Caps. It didnt effect the other races as bad b/c they dont get that bonus migitation...but it doesn matter what ship it is around the 90% can have invincable units. SB is another example...with their high armor and hp regen the little damage that got through the migitation was null.

 

Dont Captials have their armor stats anyhow? What if you just reduced the damage done to them by more Damage types slighty it would give you the buff you want with making bullet proof caps or other ships.

Reply #519 from Sins Forums Top

I knw this isn't the same kind of game, but in Fallot 3/Oblivion, the max out at 85% damage reduction, so why not here too? Seems like a gaming standard to me.  and it'd make battles longer. 

-Exile(\/)

Reply #520 from Sins Forums Top

Idk...  Buffing mitigation likely would be a good way to go, but as Carbon said, its best to stay below the 90% mark.

Reply #521 from Sins Forums Top

Maybe an increase in max shield mitigation past lvl 6?
End of quote


My opinion is to give caps some form of "super-mitigation" that only kicks in when they take exceptionally high damage levels (focus fire, basically).  This mitigation may be an extension of the existing shield mitigation or an entirely new feature.  This mitigation would only remain active while the capital ship took excessive amounts of damage.

This would mean that focus fire would have diminishing returns against capital ships.  Doubling the number of LRF might only give you a 50% damage increase.  While this would still be deadly to capital ships, it would be much more difficult to bring them down through sheer numbers, and at very least would require time. 


THe probelm I have with the huge LRF fleet arguement is that they aren't extremely common for TEC or Vasari.
End of quote


That's because (shock) these guys actually have to mix unit types to win, often mixing in carriers, flaks, support cruisers, and heavies.  It's still common to see a backbone of 30 or 40 LRM's even if there's a bunch of flaks, hoshikos, and carriers rounding it out.  It's certainly not the same as an illuminator swarm, but still enough to marginalize capital ships.

Reply #522 from Sins Forums Top

My opinion is to give caps some form of "super-mitigation" that only kicks in when they take exceptionally high damage levels (focus fire, basically). This mitigation may be an extension of the existing shield mitigation or an entirely new feature. This mitigation would only remain active while the capital ship took excessive amounts of damage.

This would mean that focus fire would have diminishing returns against capital ships. Doubling the number of LRF might only give you a 50% damage increase. While this would still be deadly to capital ships, it would be much more difficult to bring them down through sheer numbers, and at very least would require time.
End of quote

 

Idk, adding another complicated damage reducer on top of the current 2 sounds like trouble somehow. Its another thing that could end up being bugged or flawed and take a long time to get right.

I think with all the current methods of damage reduction and HP tweaks we can do now, it be alot easier to get what your looking for. Might I suggest you take a look at Distant Stars Caps. They last alot longer and feel more like the Caps everyone is looking for. To be honest though they might be too buffed in our mod right now, but try it out anyhow and see how simply adjusting the HP and such give you Caps that stand a bit more punishment.

Reply #523 from Sins Forums Top

Honestly, I've always been in favor of having mitigation be spread across different damage types, but seeing as how that will never happen, I don't think we should have a super-miti either.  That would be difficult to balance and would just not end well in general.

Reply #524 from Sins Forums Top

Super mitigation would be nice, but I don't think its in the realm of a patch, same with separate tech tree upgrades. We need to figure out a fix to existing features to fix the problem, because the devs are not likely to create new ones. Mitigation would work, but Carbon is right, to high and the things become to tough. Certainly need to keep the max below 90%. Theres that or, increasing hp/shield increases per level or increasing armor increases per level. The problem I see with the latter two is the cap ships being too tough in general, and not specifically to FF (why i think max mitigation is the way to go). Perhaps the max at level 10 should be a base of 80 (advent upgrades could make it 84) so they take only 20% of the damage thrown at them upon FF at their highest level. IF they start out at 62% as they do now, it would put them at around 72-73% at level 6 (which is the current lvl 10 max).

Reply #525 from Sins Forums Top

Okay, that sounds good.  Advent, being the shield experts, being the ones to reach the 84-85% mark...somewhere in there.  And mitigation is certainly the easiest way to go for this fix.  It makes sense that cap ships, having the strongest shields anyway, would have stronger shield emmiters capable of withstanding more stress before losing integrity.

-Exile(\/)