again, as you take scripture out of context you also twist my words.  I never said that. 

since you seem to like Peter and agree he was chosen by Christ, did you not know he said the following giving the OT prophets and NT Appostles equal authority:

"That you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the Apostles of the Lord and Saviour"  2 Peter 3:2

and this is the last straw Whisper.  I'll leave you with the scripture reading I just happened to read this morning taken from Proverbs 26 (today's date)

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him....as a dog returns to his vomit so a fool returns to his folly." 

Jesus didn't write His own words down.

good point. No, he didn't.  And Mark wrote his gospel thru the eyes of Peter as he traveled with Peter later on. 

I was just reading Mark, thinking, who the heck is Mark?

Also known as John Mark.  Mark was the one who had a beef with Paul in the book of Acts so much so that it split Paul and Barnabas up because John Mark was his relative.  So Barnabas went one way with John Mark and Paul took Luke...and the rest is history (literally).   See Col 4:10 and 1 Peter 5:13 for background info as well as Acts. 

The Gospel of Mark is also known as the gospel of Action as Peter was known as a man of action. 

Peter. Saint Peter.

??

Did you not know all Christians are considered Saints according to the scriptures? 

"again, as you take scripture out of context you also twist my words.  I never said that."

Oh no? 

"Peter was a fisherman with little to no book learning. "

Guess you did.

I do not take scriputre out of context, I simply don't rewrite it, nor do I take it in the manner that is the most convenient and the most undemanding for me as you seem to do.

Not one apostle is of any importance at all other than the fact that they were present with Jesus and were able to relate his words and trachings.  I think that in your ardor for Paul you've forgotten just who's words are of importance........and they aren't Pauls, nor any other apostle.

I am well aware of what Peter did, and as I said before.......Peter caved in to peer pressure.  Just as he caved when he denied Jesus.

"That you may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us, the Apostles of the Lord and Saviour"  2 Peter 3:2

Yes, Peter always had an ego of enormous proportions, not to mention a quick temper, but what has this to do with Paul, who was not a chosen apostle?  Try to remember if you can, that the apostles were nothing more than men.  Men who were chosen by Jesus to receive special knowledge from him..............not because they were unique, or special, or wonderful, or educated, but simply because they were ready.

"and this is the last straw Whisper.  I'll leave you with the scripture reading I just happened to read this morning taken from Proverbs 26 (today's date)

"Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest you also be like him....as a dog returns to his vomit so a fool returns to his folly." 

Don't lay this "fool" crap on me KFC.  It's simply an evasion to my prevous post to you about just who is your God.  Which by the way I noticed that you bothered not to answer.  You are as transparent as glass.  But yes, as a dog returns to it's vomit a fool will return to his folly, and you will return to yours. 

Read your book, and sit on your unearned laurels.  The book won't aid you because you have no experience on which to draw that allows for understanding of the words of Jesus.  You won't walk his path, nor take his words to heart..............even though you are perfectly capable of doing so.  His words were meant for others not you.  You've already earned your spot.....................and in thinking that dear woman............you've already lost.

You do take scripture out of context and do rewrite it.  Yes, I said Peter was a fisherman with little to no book learning.  You accused me as saying this: 

so you did take and twist my words.  Where did I say he was ignorant?  Illiterate nobody? 

To clarify let's look and see what the scriptures say outside of the fact that he was a fisherman.  Maybe that will help you. 

"When they saw the courage of Peter and John (under the direction of the Holy Spirit) and realized that they were unschooled ordinary men, they were astonished and they took not that these men had been with Jesus."    Acts 4:13

So to answer your question...

thru the power of the Holy Spirit. 

Wow...good going KFC...over 500 really interesting comments....great topic.

KFC WRITES

Really? So, then in essence, you have already judged yourself and dispensed with God's judment of the state of your immortal soul at your death.

Scripture refutes your assertion repeating Protestant reformation theology that you can know for sure you are going to Heaven) and rather tells us that God is our Judge and we will pay for our sins down "to the last farthing".

Again..and I can't repeat this enough....This idea of "eternal security" i e that a "born again" believer can know for sure that he will go to heaven is false and dangerous thinking.

kfc posts:

Here's the Biblical truth...We baptized Christians are being saved as we are to heed St.Paul's warning to be obedient and to work out our salvation with fear and trembling Phil. 2:13; 1St.Peter1: 8-9. Trusting solely in God's grace, I pray that I will be saved 1Cor. 3:15, by remaining in the state of grace and friendship with Him ( that is by being obedient to God's will and commands) until the end of my life. St.Matt. 24:13; Rom. 11:22.

Scripture also teaches that one's final salvation depends on the state of the soul at death as "there shall not enter into it (heaven) anything defiled." Apoc. 21:25. So, one who dies in the state of grace will go to heaven, but one who dies in the state of enmity and rebellion against God (that is in the state of grevious sin) will go to Hell.

Furthermore, St. Paul teaches "the wages of sin is death" Rom. 6:23. That's why Saint Paul warned the Phillipians to be obedient and to work out their salvation with fear and trembling. If St.Paul had believed as you apparently do--that we can know with full assurance,---then he would not have said this.

And Jesus Himself tells us "He who endures to the end will be saved." St.Matt. 24:13; 25:31-46.

So here alone, Scripture tells us our individual salvation depends upon our being "obedient" and enduring (in faith and charity) to the end.

KFC posts:

On the contrary, it's you KFC, saying------I can "know" that I'm going to heaven since he believes we really can't know for sure. I refuted that, because I do absolutely know for sure I'm going to heaven. ----who is in disagreement with Our Lord, Jesus Christ, and Sts. Peter and Paul.

KFC posts:

All baptized Christians have what is called a moral assurance, though not an absolute one. We can't know with absolute assuredness we are going to Heaven with this passage..it does provide us with confidence and a lively hope.

Hope and belief in the promises of Christ of eternal life to those who believe and love Him and keep His commands.

We ourselves are quite capable of throwing away our inheritance and opportunity for salvation, if we throw away His love and turn away from Him.

kfc posts:

When one puts Scripture all together, one realizes that St.Paul teaches 2 dimensions of salvation...predestination and free will. Regarding what you said and is highlighted----We both know Calvin and Luther's views which teach that God actively intervenes in the lives of the elect to make absolutely sure they are saved. Again, it's wrong and dangerous to believe their view which in effect is a repeat of the Pelagius heresy.

 In St.John 6:37; 44-45, Jesus states clearly that it is the Father who initiates the salvation process. The Father must draw to Jesus those whom He wills to be saved. (But this does not exclude our free will.) For at the same time, Jesus specifies that each person has the choice to "listen" to the "teaching of God". When they "listen" and "learn" they will come to Jesus. Now, this isn't exclusively an irrestible force upon the individual for Jesus is clear in 5:40 that it is the man who decides not to come to God: "These are Scriptures that testify about me, yet you refuse to come to me to have life."  

OK, I've done some research on this word too and it's a long drawn out explanation...it has to do with the Greek second person pluralto be sure St.John often speaks (something like 600 times) of factual knowledge about the Christian faith that can be absolutely known...eg just 2 verses later 1St.John 3:15, "We know that no murderer has eternal life". In 5:20 "we know also that the Son of God has come."

 In any case, St.John is speaking only of persons who possess factual knowledge of the aspects of the Christian faith, and not the indivudual possessing factual certainity of his own salvation without contingencies....read 1St.John 2:20; 21, 29, 3:2; 5, 14, 15; 5:13, 15, 16, 18, 19, 20,

Again, we have been given the moral assurance and can hope with confidence that we will attain Heaven at our judgment but we won't know for sure until we've died, been judged  and told to enter the Heavenly gate.

Ha.....about never packing my Bible...good advice....I own six and yes, all were packed.. However, I always have my 1962 daily Missal closeby for it has passages from the Bible spoken and prayed at every Mass and very good for meditation.  

kfc posts # 473 pg 19

And St.Paul taught the wages of sin is death. And StJohn taught that no one who is defiled with sin will enter heaven.

And God gave us the means of being reconciled again with Him...it's called the Sacrament of Baptism that washes away original sin from our soul and Confession.

I didn't come with original sin.

I am one of the creatures made by my god and my god doesn't make creatures that come with built-in sin.

Does that mean that I won't need baptism?

What if I convert to your imperfect god? Will I then be an automatic sinner like you claim his followers are until baptism?

You take the words "ignorant nobody" as meaning something derogatory.  It does not.  There is great advantage to being an ignorant nobody.  Peter was ignorant and as a fisherman he was a nobody.  You said that he was a fisherman and illiterate, it was in your defense of Paul who was educated by the best of his time.  You compared the two and Paul it seems, won in your mind, because he was educated by the most learned men of his time.  You seem to be impressed with those things of man and less impressed with those things of God.

Once more I assert that the apostles are of absolutely no importance what so ever.  Their explanations and directions are of no importance either.  The only thing that is of any importance is their relating to men of the direct quotes and teachings of Jesus.   In other words the only person of importance, and the only words of importance in the NT is Jesus, his words and teachings.  Those teachings and words were meant not the few, not just those that he was addressing them to, but ALL, including all that were to come after his death and resurrection.  Those instructions that Jesus gave in order that one might enter into the next life are absolute.  They can not be changed nor altered.  In order to follow him one must follow his instructions to the letter.  Jesus said that one can not come to the father unless one comes through him.  This is not a statement of "belief" contary to what most think, although belief is a good place to start.  It is a statement of how one must live this life in order to enter the next.  If one can not trust in God to care for them in this life (the parable of the lilies of the field for one example) and instead relies on themselves to do this, then one can not rely on God in the next life either.

"And God gave us the means of being reconciled again with Him...it's called the Sacrament of Baptism that washes away original sin from our soul and Confession."

Until one overcomes self and gives way to God, one will never wash away one's sins, baptism is not an automatic washing away of it, but a chance to reflect and change one's ways.  Original sin was one of self as is evidenced in the following temptation of the serpent in the garden:

"For God doth know that in what day soever you shall eat thereof, your eyes shall be opened: and you shall be as Gods, knowing good and evil".  

Wouldn't you be baptized right away?

In other words, stop thinking for yourself.

I think you mean BY the serpent.

"In other words, stop thinking for yourself."

Yes, exactly.  Don't misunderstand that, it's not that we should let some other person think for us.  It means that we should allow the holy spirit do it.  When we do the thinking it tends to be all about ourselves, when the holy spirit does it it is what's right and just, and of benefit to all concerned.

Of or by it makes no difference.  What I wrote was grammatically correct since I was speaking of the serpents tempting speach given to the woman.

I know.

When we let the "holy spirit" do it, we want the world to end.

Not the world, just our participation in it.  There is another world, one without all the pain, sorrow, grief and death, but we can't exist in it as long as we cling to this one.

Probably.

Yet with my god I don't even need that ceremony. I am already without built-in sin.

Oh yes you did.   God has placed within the human heart a deisre for union with Him becasuse "God wills all men to be saved and come to know the truth."

First, according to Genesis, all humankind, the pinnacle of Creation, is  both physical and spiritual. Spiritual, that is, your eternal soul is made in the image and likeness of Almighty God.  Also according to Genesis, you,  like everyone as a descendant of Adam, were born with the effects of original sin upon your physical body and eternal soul.

If not, you would not toil and labor for your daily bread, or ever become old or ill, experience suffering  or pain, etc.

 The salvation of the Hebrews (who were formed into God's first Chosen People)  became possible by circumcision ( a type or forerunner of Baptism). Following circumcision they had to live by the Old Covenant established between them and God. The salvation of the entire world took place by Christ's Death on the Cross, which was God's action (in Christ) but it requjires a human response.

IN the same way, the death of Christ brought about a new Covenant in His Blood, also calling for a personal response. You , like all the rest of humankind,  have been offered the gift of salvation. when confronted with the offer of salvatrion, the person is is given the impulse to respond with faith which is always a gift freely given by a gracious and merciful, loving God. To be a fully human response, an act of faith includes the intellect and the free will.  

Then your god isn't the one true God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Those who have been presented the gift of faith is then incorportaed into Christ through Baptism, the Sacrament which frees us from the original sin of our first parents and inserts us into Christ's Paschal mystery. If one believes Sacred Scripture, then the effects of the Sacrament are beyond dispute: the removal of original sin is found in Romans 5:12-19.

Agree. Original Sin was a sin of pride in the first degree....The devil had them thinking they too could be like or "as God".

Follow His instructions...absolutely yes. However, as you must know, Christ taught using parables and one of His teachings says something about plucking out your eye. He didn't mean for us to litterally pluck out our eye. (I haven't unpacked my Bible or concordance so I can't cite the passage off hand.)

What does this mean Leauki?  You are without sin?  You weren't born in sin? 

now Whisper I can agree with you for the most part except for the fact that you totally dismiss others Christ uses in his plan.  It's all about Christ.  Absolutely. Always has been.   But even Christ made himself a nobody being born into this world to two nobodies to do the will of His father.  He made himself of ill repute it says in scripture.  He wasn't even good looking and nothing about his physical appearance would endear us to him. But even so, it's still all about Christ. 

But after saying that... Christ did involve others in His work and it's just as important work because it's His work.  We are to be His hands and feet.   You can see that throughout the gospels.  Take the first miracle for instance in John 2.  He didn't need the servant's help to fill those barrels with water.  He chose to use them.  He had them fill the barrels and then had them pour them out as wine.  God always uses his people to accomplish his will.   Our importance is in Him tho.  We have to make ourselves nobodies in order to be used. 

That's why Paul wrote we are made strong in our weakness.  God doesn't use the prideful. They're already full of themselves...there's no room for God to work in them.   He uses the humble, because they are empty vessels God can use for His glory.  It's not about us...it's all about Him.  But you shouldn't negate the fact that to Him we are very important in His eyes and in His work. 

circumcision has nothing to do with baptism.  In the OT the Jews had a purification ritual that involved water and cleansing.  If anything that would be a forerunner to baptism.  Not circumcision.   

no, that's legalism.  It's not about the letter but about the spirit of the law.  We are not under the law but under Grace. 

I _was_ without sin. Since then I hyve pretty much collected them.

And yes, I wasn't born in sin. All tasks related to my birth were allowed under Jewish law.

And even if they hadn't been, it wouldn't have me but my parents who had committed the sins.

That's true and I don't know where those ideas come from.

Circumcision was and is solely a symbol of the compact between G-d and the people of Israel. It does not change the sinner status of anyone.

Nice to see that you've returned and all has gone well with you, Lulapilgrim.

You say the sin of pride, yet pride is nothing more than a by product of self importance, along with greed, envy, malice, etc.  Self importance is the original sin, and it can not be simply washed away in baptism, it's removal requires deliberate and concious effort on the part of each individual.  We are all born with a modicum of it, and then it's cultivated by parents and society.  It becomes so much a part of us and our thinking that we don't even notice it.  Baptism is a ritual, and like all rituals it's true purpose is to focus one's complete and undivided attention on the matter at hand, whether it be prayer or baptism.   We can only change ourselves if we are totally focused and aware of the problem, ritual brings us that necessary and required focus.

"His teachings says something about plucking out your eye. He didn't mean for us to litterally pluck out our eye. (I haven't unpacked my Bible or concordance so I can't cite the passage off hand.)"

Yes I know the passage, it goes:  "So if thy right eye is an occasion of sin to thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee; for it is better for thee that one of thy members should perish than that thy whole body should be thrown into hell."

I don't see this as a parable.  A parable is designed to make one think and ponder it's meaning, this is pretty straightforward.  It is more like instruction.  Jesus also said "The lamp of the body is the eye.  If thy eye be sound, thy whole body will be full of light.  But if thy eye be evil, thy whole body will be full of darkness.  Therefore if the light that is in thee is darkness, how great is the darkness itself!"   The eye is most important according to Jesus, it is the one organ that he speaks of so very much because it is the one organ that influences our thinking the most. 
We believe what we see, we are horrified, or offended by what we say, or we are glad and elated by what we see, and it is the first organ that does aid us in sin.

"now Whisper I can agree with you for the most part except for the fact that you totally dismiss others Christ uses in his plan.  It's all about Christ.  Absolutely. Always has been.   But even Christ made himself a nobody being born into this world to two nobodies to do the will of His father.  He made himself of ill repute it says in scripture.  He wasn't even good looking and nothing about his physical appearance would endear us to him. But even so, it's still all about Christ."

I do not dismiss them, but I give them no more importance than that which they are entitled to.  Other than the direct quotes from Jesus, they are men, and as men they put their own understanding to the words that Jesus said, and they voiced their understanding as the one truth in the texts.  This causes many to simply take these explanations as total truth, and that caused them not to think about his words, they already were given the answers.  We must remember however that these men were also in posession of self importance, albeit less perhaps than most of us, but still in posession of it.  Peter proved it in his denial of Jesus, and the others in the fact that they were no where to be seen during the crucifixtion, but instead went into hiding, for they feared for their own lives. Paul proved it when he demanded that he be tried in Rome undder the roman law of citizenship because he also feared for the loss of his own life.

Jesus's words were designed to make every being think and ponder and wonder as to their meaning.  That pondering, wondering, and thinking is designed  to cause one to explore and prove or even to disprove the validity of those words.  This is the "action" of which Jesus speaks that must follow faith. 

Yes God uses nobody's and you are quite correct when you say that we must be empty and humble in order to be used.  That emptiness and humility is a direct result of a lack of self importance.  Paul had a great deal of it, he was after all an important man, a member of the ruling class, the sanhedrin, and continued to have a great deal of it through out his life.  He was not empty, unlike the servant who had no status or position, which meant that he had little self importance.  He was not humble, he hunted the apostles and followers of Jesus, took it upon himself to purge the land of the truth that Jesus spoke to them.  Not a humble empty man at all.  So based on your criteria, tell me, why do you think this man was chosen?