It originated from another thread...You are not going nuts  

Oops I just crashed the train....

elvee runs and clears head from thread...too much reading at one time.

DANG, DANG, DANG Bichur we got left out of another one! (Kicks the dirt, walks off into the sunset). RAD

Fourth...VStyler, you are a great artist with great heart! Thank you for what you do and dont listen to the haters!

Thanks elvee, but off the record. I am a little.......you know......NUTS! RAD

Ya know, it's bad enough this thread turned as ugly as it did. What's worse is it's carrying over into other threads.....

{link removed because post was removed - Zubaz}

hey zubas i have a question,, how do you take a logon xp screenshot?

I gave you your answer already sublime...hope you saw it before it was removed.

Ok Could anyone think twice at least before post anything else!!!!!

remind personals attacks, insults no mater who when why are not allowed in this site!
PLEASE BE ADULTS AND KEEP THIS SITE FRIENDLY

Sublime has apologized and asked that I clean up his posts.  Please excuse any discontinuities.

Some of you kill me. Thinking of yourselves instead of the community at large. What's worse, some of you are acting like kids having a pissing contest or arguing over who's got the biggest... well, you get the picture!

Is it really so important that tempers flare and tantrums are thrown? Do you have to restort to insults and name calling?

What kind of example are you setting for new skinners, or just plain ol' subscribers?

And what of the outcome? Are we all happy now? Is this the way you wanted it to end?

Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves!  

So, a master and another person get together, make a suite, offer the WB section for sale and the rest free and we have a Community Skin?

Bizarre.....this is sure a convolution of what I always thought about a Community Skin. My bad I guess.

Yes, a bit of a legless example of one...but then nothing ever really compared to the originals....and even then the second one was a forgotten episode when compared with HE...

I'm not 100% sure OUR opinions or definitions of "community skin" matters. What matters is the definition set by WC admin. Whether it's 2 or 20, if they want to call it a community skin, well... I think that would be their right.

Does it really matter that 100 people weren't involved, or that public invites weren't posted? If so, why? Does it make people feel left out? How many of you would have said anything about this had Kitty not started this thread? Were some of you waiting with bated breath, hoping someone else would broach this topic so you could jump in on either side of the fence?

Everyone got so worked up over the definiton of the word community that most of you forgot what a community really was.......

No one said it wasn't their right. But in a world where our opinions concerning the meaning of "community" don't really matter and we just accept the edicts from above without comment.....well, then that is not much of a community, only an audience.

Here's 2 cents worth. In all this no one gave a discription of community, From Webster: common ownership • they shared a community of possessions, dosn't say one part can't be forsale and the other part free. Can't we all just gey along   

sorry it's early, thats get and not gey  

Having a differing opinion should not be construed as "not getting along". There is no hostility on this end for sure. Just for the point, common ownership and personal property are two different things. To sell something you must own it first or if you own it is common, you must get everyone's agreement to sell. I always viewed Community Skins as skins made as a combined effort by the community as a gift for the community. Only my view, certainly not a written WC description but one I think was shared by many. If that has evolved into a pair of folks making a suite and selling the core element (WB) then so be it. It certainly will not change my life one way or the other. I do think that it is a the very least a notable change as the for sale skin world continues to evolve. BTW, I have supported the masters program since its beginning.

But WC isn't a democracy, is it? No. It's a company owned and operated by individuals who have the right to set whatever standards and rules they choose. To me, it's not important enough to cough up a hairball over.
It's apparent (to me) that most people have a different idea of what a "community skin" is. But in the end, that decision is made by the higher-ups at WC, and that's part of their responsibility. You can't please everyone. Most of the time, it's hard to please a majority of people. Do you change the definition of "community skin" just because a handful of people don't think it was, in reality, a "community" effort?
I still can't figure out what the big deal is. So you don't think it was a community project because the general public wasn't invited? But it wasn't just a MaxStyles effort. Outsiders were recruited to assist in making parts of it. So where is this NOT a "community skin"?

There is no big deal in my book....just a discussion....

Why do you keep bring up MaxStyles?

We are crossing posts...Two people making a suite with the core for sale is simply a different idea of a community skin than I think was held by many and is a result of the evolving world of pay for skins with which I have no problem. I do not think this is a world breaking situation nor have I presented it as such. I am not talking about MaxStles skins or any other particular skin, I am talking abut Jafo's definition of a community skin period.

I wasn't gonna bring any of this up. I'm tired of getting beat up. But since it it's out here as it were..

Part of me says WC should back off on mentioning 'Maxstyles' if it's going to call it a community skin. BUT...I understand the trade off in promoting each others sites, etc. And people 'outside' of Maxstyles did contribute. My problem with it is having to 'pay' for a 'community' skin. It does seem odd. I also look at (and maybe this just complicates the whole debate) the fact that the Harmony WB was pushed as a premium skin on DA with a link to MaxStyles and sold on MaxStyles...before...it was available here. One 'could' look at the 'community' involvement as getting a bunch of folks to contribute their time and talent to help sell a skin. I don't know that a free version of it would be appropriate compensation considering what would or could actually be taken in on the WB alone, but I understand that that is each persons decision and choice.

I think the Easter skin and the Halloween skins that Avman organized are true community skins. Though WC says that White Fire is 'mostly the MaxStyles crew' efforts, I can live with calling it a community skin. But 'Harmony'...I personally feel (and strongly) that if any piece of it is being sold, it should not be called a community skin.

Thanks for the insight. Of course it is not a democracy but like any good company is interested in the opinions of their customers as a part as they policy development. That is one value of this community.

Ok....here's my personal opinion on this whole deal.

In my opinion...a "community skin" would be something that is announced as such in a way that "everyone knows" about it before its released...not after. Then...everyone has a chance to create and submit something...and as long as what it is thats created matches the skin it could/would be excepted/included with said "community skin."

To date...the only "community skins" that I have been aware of were/are HeavyMetal & Avman's Halloween skin. These were both "announced" in a public way to the "community" here at WinCustomize...at which point everyone was able to at least consider creating or contributing something to these skins...not necessarily guaranteeing that every contribution would be accepted/included with the skin...only as long as the contribution matched the skin.

Now....if a group of skinners get together and create something...which is perfectly fine...without announcing "in a public way" to "the whole community"...not just a comment in a forum thread that more than likely everyone won't see...that there is a community skin being created...thereby giving everyone in the community the chance to consider contributing something to it...I would consider that a "group project"...not a community skin...especially when the skin is being sold...which again is perfectly fine...but I would not consider that to be a "community skin." A community created skin...in my opinion would be something that would be created by the community and free to the whole community...not sold to the community.

From what I've read here...every skin that has ever been created...that has had someone other than the original creator add something to the skin is now/has been consider a community skin?

I think there needs to be a clearer definition of "community skins" and "group projects." One reason I say this is because I consider myself very much a part of this "community" but was completely unaware there was a community skin/skins in the works. It was only after the skins were released that I was aware of this.

And just to be clear here...I'm not angry/hurt/bothered by this at all...I have enough projects going on myself at the moment creating docks. I'm just saying that there needs to be a clearer definition of what a "community skin" is versus a "group project." I think if it had been called a "group project" skin that is being sold rather than a "community skin" that is being sold...nobody would have batted an eye at this.

So...shoot me if you must...but I can see why Kitty might have been confused by this whole thing.

In the end, the more suites labeled "community", the better we all are..as a community.



excellent point Ken.   

Exactly the point I was trying make earlier, Po.

Does anyone remember the skin Gabriel made (Glassteel) and asked for volunteers to contribute? It was given freely to everyone. I consider that a community skin

How about Project Onyx? It was a group project that didn't openly ask for volunteers but was also given away freely. I consider that a community skin as well, although I do see the difference from Glassteel in how it was started in regards to participation.

As kenwas said, it just seems a bit wonky if a Master and one other skinner get together, create say a Windowblind and a DX object and sell them and it is called a community skin.