and so it starts

So I need to apologize about the Orca's thing to

No more apology is necessary. You've made your intent clear and that's sufficient. I took the cumbya thing as a dismissive, it’s clear now that you did not mean it that way, but yes, without the further clarification that’s the way I interpreted it. I cannot argue nor do I doubt what your intent was. You cannot argue or doubt what my interpretation was.

My position is that people should get along and be tolerant of conflicting positions, but not to the extent of becoming a milk toast pansy that allows people to walk all over them. The line of demarcation between these two responses is very subjective, will vary dependent on the people involved and vary even with the mood of the people involved. When I try to steer people away from topics such as this it’s because of exactly this reason. It’s very difficult to know when you’ve crossed the line because the line can change dramatically. I try to stay as far from the line as possible because I may unknowingly cross your line as easily as you may unknowingly cross mine. So much of communication is in body language and other visual clues. You have to be very careful in a medium such as this which is limited to mere words that your true intent comes through, adding a smiley face at the end doesn’t always make it better.

I don’t believe that I abandoned my position at any time, I simply demonstrated that I can be just as human as the next guy. I will always choose cooperation and accommodation up to a point. Where exactly that point is will depend.

By the way, I don’t think I explicitly apologized to you. I certainly meant no disrespect to your beautiful young daughter, nor to anyone of Scottish and Irish descent (but cheap is indeed a good quality to have in one’s wife).

The only area where your respect is questioned is in proper use of the English language.

Now for you, Wheel. Please do let me know about whatever is lacking in my utilization of the English language. I anxiously await your tutelage.

BTW, to everyone in general. I had no intent to become as involved in this thread as I have become. What relationship this conversation bears to the initial post of America, Freedom and Fascism, I have no clue.

I think you took my shot at Lordpinko.

I have absolutely no problems with you. Everything you write is sensible and easy to read.

Rock on, Mumble. I'm not aiming anything at you. Automatically assume that.

Rock on, Mumble. I'm not aiming anything at you. Automatically assume that.

Oh. Yes. I guess I do see what you meant. You were quoting Lordpinko, who just happened to be talking about me at the time. I guess I need a rest from this for awhile. I'm going to take a break from here and finish up my game. See you folks in a few days.

Don't you need to apologize to me first?

Oh, wait, there was nothing you needed to apologize for. Occassional bouts with PMS occur in every man's life... There I go wishing I were a woman again.

Don't you need to apologize to me first?

I did apologize towards the bottom of post #127

By the way, I don’t think I explicitly apologized to you. I certainly meant no disrespect to your beautiful young daughter, nor to anyone of Scottish and Irish descent

But as I also said in post 127 I did not abandon my position. Did you read post 127?

As far as Marcathonas, we go way back and understand each other, plus I can spell his name correctly without cutting and pasting.

This thread has just made us all a lot dumber..

This thread has just made us all a lot dumber..

Just because something has happened to you does not mean everyone else feels the same way. Some may even be enlightened by this thread.

This thread has just made us all a lot dumber..

No. I think the topic of the thread itself was a dumb one to begin with and had no potential of spawning anything but grief. I'm pretty sure I said as much in my initial post in this thread, I just don't want to bother scrolling back three pages to check it.

At that time I didn't anticipate that I would be part of the cause of the grief, it certainly wasn't my intent. These threads end up with a life of their own with the topic morphing into god knows what. How much of this thread is related to the OP's purported topic? Not very much as far as I can tell.

There must be some kind of need that these threads satisfy because they seem to happen over and over again. Perhaps someone should open a thread entitled "The general purpose argument thread". It probably should be made sticky. Then anyone wanting a good argument has a place to go. As far as I can tell the topic itself just doesn't really matter.

Anyway, I'm sticking around only long enough to find out whether or not ShuShu accepts my apology. In the future I'll be far less likely to try and be a voice of reason in an otherwise pointless thread. If people are bound and determined to bash each other it's apparent that I can't stop them. I only run the risk of being sucked into the melee. So bash away and I'll just leave the mediation to Kryo, he's much better at it than I am anyway.

This thread has just made us all a lot dumber..

how ?

at least we know were we stand.

I am not sure how I could be mistaken for a politicain. I wasn't demanding an apology Mumble, I was was just joking around.

By the way, I don’t think I explicitly apologized to you.

I thought you were meaning to say you weren't apologizing to me for believing its good to be nice. That seemed like a reasonable stance to take to me.

I didn't register what followed as an apology because you never had insulted my wife or my daughter or my non-existent penny pinching tendencies. You had told me to drop Lord; suggested I was a cross dresser and/or desirous of a special operation; and I think there was also an inference that my wit bites. Some might consider those things worthy of apology.

I don't however. Your response acknowledging that your initial impression of my initial post was not what I had intended, was exactly the correct response. People who believe in winners and losers need apologies. People who believe cooperation is not a completely benign process actually don't like apologies.

You are good man Mumblefratz, I am sorry my postings feel like I am saying something other.

You had told me to drop Lord; suggested I was a cross dresser and/or desirous of a special operation; and I think there was also an inference that my wit bites. Some might consider those things worthy of apology.

People that believe in trying to make things better and then fly off the handle for some minor perceived slight believe that these things are worthy of apology as well. This is how I view my recent actions. So I want to explicitly and unreservedly apologize for each and every one of them.

You brought up feelings so I’m using that as an excuse to take a moment and share a few of mine. I intensely dislike these kinds of topics because, as I've said so many times, they solve nothing, change no one's opinion and can only cause hard feelings. Why these topics interest anyone is really beyond me, but they must because people flock to them at every opportunity.

But the question is, who am I that I take it on myself to try to "fix" the situation. The answer is, nobody really, it's Kryo’s job to monitor these forum's and if people exceed Stardock's defined limits on behavior, to take appropriate action. The problem with this as I see it, is that Kryo's hands are tied by Stardock's otherwise admirable free speech policy.

Because I have no relationship whatsoever with Stardock and because I see the apparent need, I feel it would be morally negligent on my part to not at least try to do something to reduce the level of animosity below what would otherwise result from Kryo’s action of occasionally and temporarily reducing the most blatant offenders to visitor status. This is the main motivation for pretty much every post that I’ve made in these types of threads. I really have no interest whatsoever in the topic itself. I am deeply saddened when, as in this case, I become a part of the problem instead of part of the solution.

I’ve also had the hubris to assume I could possibly make a difference in the behavior of a few selected individuals by developing relationships with them and gently prodding them away from bad behavior and towards the goal of becoming valuable GalCiv2 citizens. My unconscious selection criteria have been people that remind me of my younger self, hotheads capable of flying off the handle at the most minute perceived provocation but with the capacity of laughing at oneself when forced to examine one’s own behavior. My recent behavior suggests that perhaps I’m not so removed from them as I thought.

In any case, though my recent behavior may have dampened my enthusiasm for trying to be the voice in the wilderness, my nature is such that I’ve no doubt I’ll shortly be back doing the same damn thing. As the wise old sage, Popeye, once said “I yam what I yam and that’s all that I am”.

for a liberal i realy like you   

you do like your long posts don't you

for a liberal i realy like you

Actually I'm not a liberal at all. I've never really expressed my political beliefs because of all the reasons I've listed above. I object to political discussions in this forum regardless of whether or not I happen to agree with the particular viewpoint being expressed.

you do like your long posts don't you

I'm an electrical engineer by trade. It takes me a lot of words to convey the precise meaning of the idea I'm trying to express. Even then it seems that lot of the meaning that I think is there is missed or misconstrued. I'm sure people with more training than I in the art of communication, could express the same ideas in far fewer words and convey these ideas more accurately. I'm still far more comfortable with electronic circuits than with words.

I don't mean liberal in the political way.

I’ve also had the hubris to assume I could possibly make a difference in the behavior of a few selected individuals by developing relationships with them and gently prodding them away from bad behavior and towards the goal of becoming valuable GalCiv2 citizens

That's not Hubris. That is a correct and valid assessment of the prominent role you currently play in the Forums.

they solve nothing, change no one's opinion and can only cause hard feelings

That is.

People that believe in trying to make things better and then fly off the handle for some minor perceived slight believe that these things are worthy of apology as well

Time for a little dime store psychology here. Carve the world up into instigators (me) and moderators (you). This is a good thing, too many instigators yields chaos, to many moderators stifle thought.

Speaking as an instigator, I feel safe in saying that People who believe in making things better are the ones who fly off the handle at perceived slights. They believe they are the good guys and somehow above the fray and thus always feel slighted to be considered fair game. (think UN in the Balkans, and NGOs in Iraq). They are right that they are the good guys, but wrong to feel that gives them a free ride...

Anyway, I believe our little conversation belies your statement that nothing good can come of threads like this. I believe we have illustrated what happens when grown ups communicate (maturity, not age being the relevant factor here). The Instigator keeps the fire burning but works to keep it under control, and the moderator acknowledges his role in fueling it. Controlled fires are good things. I think this is a far more insightful portrayal of communication than 'Deep' movies like Crash and Babel, that rely on their characters acting like children to maintain the perpetual stateof escalation. I think the fact that others have chimed in in the middle of our conversation, points out that it has not devolved into a private conversation between the two of us yet, and thus there must be something of value in what we are saying.

US/UK/UN good guys or bad guys ?
that could be an interesting thread

US/UK/UN good guys or bad guys ? that could be an interesting thread

Make that thread and watch the banstick fly. This is NOT a political forum. So would you pretty please stop trolling?

did I say I was going to post it.
don't read things in to stuff that isnt there.

Anyway, I believe our little conversation belies your statement that nothing good can come of threads like this. I believe we have illustrated what happens when grown ups communicate (maturity, not age being the relevant factor here). The Instigator keeps the fire burning but works to keep it under control, and the moderator acknowledges his role in fueling it. Controlled fires are good things.

I have to agree with you here, but this has been fairly unique. Also the good that came of it (though it may yet head downhill again) had nothing to do with the purported topic of America, Freedom and Fascism.

I like the fire analogy, I think it's rather apt. Small, naturally occurring forest fires are good for the forest, clear out dangerous underbrush and don’t unduly threaten life and limb. It’s only when strict fire prevention measures have been implemented and the small fires prevented over time that the real danger of massive uncontrollable fires begins to increase.

I guess that must be the attraction of these types of threads. They’re a “safe” place to rant and let off a little steam that could otherwise remain pent up and eventually explode. I’m sure they also provide a bit of “slice of life” drama that interests some folks.

I wouldn't want to put too much earth shattering credence in this but it does illustrate your point. Also the roles of instigator and moderator, as you call them, are clearly not fixed, in our interchange who was which depended on when (you mentioned this duality as well).

The problem is most instigators just instigate and keep right on going, if it appears that they’ve actually managed to upset someone that’s their victory and even then they’d continue just to make sure everyone else knew that they’ve “won”. Of course, that would also demonstrate their total lack of maturity, but this *is* the most prevalent outcome that I’ve seen occur in these forums under these conditions.

In many ways, this is way more philosophical (or maybe psychological) than I usually care for, though I’m not so sure you could tell that from my posts. I just in general like folks to get along and be helpful to each other, the psychological reasons behind why I prefer this are really not that important to me. Implying deep seated emotional issues behind peoples motivations just seems a little too “touchy feely” to me.


Yet another one of the rather long posts that I’m overly fond of, hey Lordpinko?

lol

In many ways, this is way more philosophical (or maybe psychological) than I usually care for, though I’m not so sure you could tell that from my posts. I just in general like folks to get along and be helpful to each other, the psychological reasons behind why I prefer this are really not that important to me. Implying deep seated emotional issues behind peoples motivations just seems a little too “touchy feely” to me.

for some reason psychologists piss me off

psychological or other my deep hate I think comes from them reading psychology into everything and there I have all the answers attitude

psychological or other my deep hate I think comes from them reading psychology into everything and there I have all the answers attitude

Yeah, you just burn things. Nothing complex about your hypocrisy at all.

you are in idiot marc.

the BNP kill people and rob old women, we have a problem with that.

you are the kind of idiot that thinks you know everything and have the right to judge others.

It'll take someone you know getting killed for you to understand how bad they are.

Wow, interesting reading. It took me almost two hours to read through this entire thread. There were so many things I wanted to comment on through out the entire thread, I just do not think I have the time or energy to do so now. Not to mention this post would turn into a novel. I just wish I had crawled out from under the rock I have been living under for the last few days to see this post so I could have taken part. For the most part it was civil, entertaining, and at times comical. For the record, I very rarely post my political or religious views, although I am religious and very political. I know these are my views and most people do not want to hear them. With that said, whoever wrote that no matter what is said, you are not going to change the minds of others and their potential political or religious views on these forums, was absolutely correct in my opinion.

Now let me get the ball rolling on an interesting topic someone brought up early on within this thread.

A united world seems unrealistic in todays time and by todays standards. It seems to me that there are two major powers that keep us as a species, separated into factions hell bent on fighting amongst each other on just about every level, or at the very least, disagree on most issues that currently occupy todays headlines. Those two things alone define major characteristics in most individuals. Political View and Religion. Now there are other barriers that keep us separated as well, ethnicity, culture, and language are a few that come to mind, and in several aspects could contribute in one way or another to dividing us but the role, to me, seems to be very limited.

Now, give the human race a common threat, let us say, for arguments sake, one like extinction from an alien attacking force. Could we resolve or set aside the differences we have that separate us and work together as one species, in an attempt to continue our existence? Tough question for such a far out scenario. In my opinion however, I do believe it would be possible, not very likely, put possible given the dire consequences. This would not fall into the "Enemy of my enemy is my friend" line of thinking because humanity would be facing complete eradication. I don't know, maybe I have to much faith in the human condition.

If a one world government were called for during this time, and actually put together in order to defend humanity, once the threat had been dispatched, it is very likely the citizens of the world, unless held in check, would revert back from whence they came politically speaking and fracture the new government. Then again, maybe I don't.

I have not intended to add any fuel to any fires that may be burning, I just wanted to share my thoughts on the one world government issues that were brought up earlier.

Here's the deal. Show me a noncorrupt human government anywhere on this planet. I'm American. I lean right more than left. I support neither party. Both are corrupt to the nth degree, both make the government larger and more powerful over the people rather than for the people. It's, as you know, not really a democracy but a republic, which is great if your elected officials who vote for you are not corrupt, selfish, embezzling, etc, but we unfortunately live in reality. As for independents, the problem there is they do not have the clout, infrastructure, support, or money to challenge the two main parties and are considered of no consequence. Do they ever get more than like 4 or 5% at best of the popular vote? It isn't realy voting for a good candidate, it's trying to figure out who is less evil. I won't espouse a party, not personally, and not here, no need for the endless debate. But I'd like to, as an American who has lived outside the USA, note a few things that bother me, irregardless of which party is in power. 1) Healthcare. What a sick and twisted country we live in when doctors for some reason need to be millionaires unlike the rest of planet Earth's doctors. A land where your health is tied to your account. Have money, have health. End of story. 2) Education. We have some of the greatest higher education available in the world yet some of the most uneducated citizenry. Why? Again, money. Many, many countries have university paid in total or in large percentage for those who wish to continue their education. Not so here. Doesn't matter how well you score. Even presidential scholarships pay less than half a year's tuition. Friends I made in Asia cannot fathom the difficulties of obtaining higher education in the US. It seems dumb to them. I agree. Oddly, we'll give full rides to athletes, but poor smart kids who test very well in ACT or SAT will pump your gas for the rest of their lives. Have money, have an education. 3) Foreign Policy vs Domestic Issues. It seems to me we like being world police because it takes the people's mind off of our problems here. And, yes, before anyone starts with some troop comment, I spent 6 years in USAF Special Operations, speak Arabic and Korean, and support our troops even though I have no idea what that means to people, they certainly don't help them in any way. Maybe they think those little yellow stickers make a recon team pinned down under fire feel better. What I mean is I do not disdain, blame, or verbally attack my brothers (and sisters) in arms. They are defending me, and any incompetence or imbecility is attributed to the country's leadership, not its soldiers. Maybe we should rebuild flood damaged areas in our own country rather than rebuild other countries. Maybe we shoud not arrogantly isolate ourselves from a world in which our perceived advantages are dwindling. Maybe our plate is full here for the time being and once we've figured that out, we can start telling humans all across the planet how they should live. 4) Morality. Insane murder rate. Child molestation and rape. Our "beacon of light" is actually pretty dim. Why would anyone want to be like us? When I lived in Seoul, I saw amazing things I'd never dream of in America. 6 year old girls walking down crowded, busy city street sidewalks unattended and unafraid. Keys left in cars. Fights without guns. Here. a child isn't even safe is his/her own yard. That's pretty sick. Show me a party that begins to address these things and then I'll have a political affiliation. Let's have the people back in power and the government back to being a servant of the people. It may have been that way once, 1 or 2 hundred years ago. Maybe we can do it again.