TN Brat! TN Brat!

Why am I not permitted to rate skins that I port?

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Why am I not permitted to rate skins that I port?

from WinCustomize Forums
Today I received an email saying

Thank you for your recent upload of your CP38 BeatNik for Beatnik.
Just a heads up.....collaborative efforts preclude you from rating your
partner's works.....it's the equivalent of rating your own, and therefore cheating.
I have removed any that I have noticed to date...and will continue to watch
these submissions.

Truth be told, he is NOT my partner. Though I have made several ports of his skins! I don't make the WindowBlinds, Rainlendars, Sysmetrix....etc. I don't make any of the images he uses....As a matter of fact he make ALL the images I use....I even request specific images when I need them. He sends me .psd files....I don't send him any...so how does this make my PORTS any different from anyone elses' ports?

So, if they are going to remove the ratings to the skins of Pinchecl's that I PORT then they should remove the ratings of the skins other people port....

I made a ports of Obdisian Order and rated it, Marcintesh OS-W, Outlook RB, K-Tek Steel, and several others too....then any ratings I gave them should be removed. Also, I know that some of those authors rated my skins, so you should fix that too. And while you're at it, you should remove any ratings they did on any other ports of their work! Oh, and as long as your so worried about it, also remove the ratings of the person that ported the skin, because I'm sure they rated the original too

First I'm not permitted to upload a Suite file that contained some of Pinchecl's skins in the suite file itself..instead of being linked...ok fine even though I have permission from him to do so, but now I can't rate his work, because he's my partner....Ok...IF he's my partner, then I own half of his work....which I do NOT, and should be permitted to upload the Suite files.....I mean it's at least half mine right?

Does that make me partners with CaveBear too? I've ported Lila, and Dream Rain and am in the process of doing more Dream Rain skins as well as Blue Lagoon??

Please, help me understand this....
And let me make it clear, that I only port Pinchecl's skins....
He really makes ALL the skins himself...
I do other ports while I'm waiting on a new set from him....I don't actually help him make the skins in any way....My contributions to HIS skins...when he's doing a new set is strictly testing and suggesting...I know that plenty of author's have people they always use to test, right?? Well, I can honestly say that until PINCHECL makes the skin and sends it to me to test I have no hand in making them....and several times I have to download the skins from here to get them....

And while I would love to actually have the artistic ability to make images and skins from scratch, I don't....that's why MOST of my skins are PORTS. Pinchecl's included. I have always said that he was the artist....and that I have NOTHING to do with the most important part of making the skins...
21,049 views 61 replies
Reply #27 from WinCustomize Forums Top
ChasUGC you've made your point very well, I think!
Thank you!!!!
Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #28 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Thanks for the reply and I do think that forwarding this to the admin would be in order, considering that you chose to curse at me. And I was very calm, about this and I do apologise that you have to spend your time responding to emails such as this, don't worry, you won't have to respond to ANY more from me. Didn't mean to infrindge on your time....though as a Mod at this site, I thought it was part of your responsibilities.....

IF Pinchecl and I wanted to create a joint account, we would have done so. As for the error.....it would seem that there are several errors very simular to this.

And I feel more than put out that if you take the time to review the uploads individualy, then perhaps you could at least get it right the first time, but more than anything, perhaps if there was a copyright/distribution issue with the CP Suites....especially considering that there are 2 already available, then perhaps Pinchecl or someone else would have contacted the admin about this....but it would seem than no one but you have a problem with this.

Thanks for you time, don't bother to respond, you have less than nothing I want to hear.

Oh and thanks for being so polite about this, it's a shame that there wasn't a way to work this out.

I did try, but it would seem that you are too busy spending "a damn sight more than 30 minutes responding to issues such as this."

Enjoy...

Paul Martin wrote:

>Arlinda...

>What say you calm down.

>

>The 'suite' system is intended for an individual skinner to upload his

>OWN skins as a suite.....all the skins are his own and therefore remain

>under his own 'control'. If a skin by someone else is to be 'included'

>then it is supposed to be by being linked-to so it loads with the

>others.....in that case it's a 'theme' file.

>It appears that confusion has reigned over this section...and any

>existing 'suites' that contain actual files that do not belong to the

>person uploading them will be removed.

>

>If, for example, you wish to be 'partnered' with another skinner to

>create a composite upload then you will have to create a joint account

>name, as is the case with Pixtudio or Skinplant.

>

>This is a copyright/distribution issue where no-one is appraised of any

>collaboration between owners of an upload.

>

>There are a dozen or two current uploads that will be addressed and

>removed for this reason.....certainly NOT 'favouritism'....and to

>suggest such is beneath contempt.

>

>Several incorrectly formulated suites were accepted in error, nothing

>more, nothing less.

>

>

>Either you link to existing uploads for ALL works not your own, and

>that includes ALL works by Pinchecl, or both you and he create a joint

>account, both with access to it so that the true skin 'owner' retains

>control over it's/their distribution.

>

>Neither T-Man, nor I were aware that your huge upload was to contain

>files that were not your own, otherwise the appropriate 'alarm bells'

>would have sounded then, rather than later.

>

>As for spending 30 minutes typing links etc, spare a thought for the

>site admins who must spend a damn sight more than 30 minutes responding

>to issues such as this.

>

>

>There's no need to forward this to other admins, etc, as I am keeping

>them up to speed with all these emails, etc.

>

>Cheers,

>Paul Martin

>Jafo

>Admin Wincustomize.com

>

>

>

>-Original Message-

>From: TNBrat!

>Sent: Sunday, 10 October 2004 6:12 AM

>To: Jafo

>Subject: Re: WinCustomize: Upload Notification

>

>Well, this is down right ridiculous! There are currently 2 other Suites

>sitting in my library that don't contain files that are my own property!

>

>As a matter of fact, I was having such a hard time uploading the CP32

>Suite that I contacted T-Man (Patrick Ford) and he raised the file size

>accepted for Suites for me to be able to submit it! Cliff Pinchetti, AKA

>

>Pinchecl, and I have been working together on the Suites and he prefers

>that I upload the Suite!

>

>It would seem that in this case that the "guidelines" wouldn't be a

>factor for us. Have you not seen the work that Pinchecl and I have been

>doing? I have specific reasons for some of the files to be linked and

>some to be included. Why were the other 2 CP Suites accepted? The 32

>Suite is ALL included ...no links at all. The 35 have several files by

>Pinchecl that are included!

>

>Pinchecl is expecting me to send him the link to these 2 Suites so he

>can update the links for his files...The files contained in 36 & 37,

>that aren't mine, are his, and it's ok with him that I upload the

>Suites...as a matter of fact....when we finished submitting all our

>files for CP32, someone asked, in his comments, for that set to be put

>together as a Suite, Pinchecl contacted me and asked me specifically to

>put the Suite together and upload it.

>

>Would they be accepted "as is" if he wrote you? Or someone else at

>WinCustomize? Or does he need to write a special permission? I know that

>

>he's not interested in uploading the Suites, because it took me over a

>month to get the 32 Suite to upload, and since his skins are

>automatically accepted, I asked if he'd like to upload it and he said

>that he preferred me to, but IF T-Man wasn't able to help get my Suite

>to upload he would upload it...but only until they were able to fix what

>

>ever the problem was....T'Man fixed it and I uploaded it...it was

>accepted....

>

>I apologize for the start of this email...I was a lot more upset than I

>am by now, but for one thing we have been waiting several days for these

>

>to be accepted...I spent 30 min or more to type each of the

>descriptions...including ALL the links...I've had 2 other Suites

>accepted that do not fall under your "guidelines"...and there has been

>several other times some of my other skins were accepted....then a

>similar skin was rejected for guideline issues....It would seem that you

>

>guys aren't always following the same set of guidelines....obviously

>depending on which Mod gets the skin that's the factor on weather or not

>

>it gets accepted....or maybe it depends on how a particular Mod is

>feeling when he gets the skin....or maybe it's that the Mods sometimes

>pay attention to the skin and sometimes he just lets them go....

>

>But what ever the case...I feel that it is bad business that sometimes

>the skin is accepted and sometimes it's rejected. This is the specific

>reason I've chosen NOT to subscribe to WinCustomize. Like I've said this

>

>has been a an ongoing issue for me there...And don't get me started on

>the favoritism there either....but I do know that Pinchecl does

>subscribe and though he hasn't bought Object Desktop, I have....and then

>

>he and I have both spent the extra money to buy CursorXP Plus and

>ObjectDock Plus...and I also know that he only bought CursorXP Plus to

>be able to make skins to submit to WC and only bought ObjectDock Plus to

>

>be able to test the Tab Backgrounds I've made to submit....and I bought

>both programs specifically to be able to make skins....I don't even use

>Object Dock, but bought Plus to make skins for submitting to WC...

>

>For me, if there hadn't been some skins available, I wouldn't have

>bought ObjectDesktop and subquiently the additional programs....I

>realize that WC isn't just a site for people to share skins....someone

>owns it and someone is making money somewhere...or it wouldn't be there,

>

>so doesn't that make Cliff and I customers?

>

>I'm not saying that your guidelines are wrong or that we should be

>treated special, because WC has a LOT of customers and I understand that

>

>you can't please all the people all the time, but what I am saying is

>that perhaps certain skins, in this case the CP Suites, be judged on a

>case by case basis? It's not like I've collected skins from a bunch of

>different authors and uploading it as my own...or uploading is as

>their's but in a Suite...this is a collobrative effort between Pinchecl

>and I. Other Mods don't seem to have an issue with me uploading the CP

>Suites...Obviously because 2 have been accepted and no one has said

>anything about it...

>

>I look forward to hearing back about this. I'm going to forward this

>also to Pinchecl...is there anyone else I should contact about this?

>

>Thank you,

>Arlinda

>

>Jafo wrote:

>

>

>

>>Dear TN Brat!,

>>

>>Thank you for your recent upload of your CP37 Suite for Suites.

>>Unfortunately your upload has not met our guidelines

>><https://www.wincustomize.com/guidelines.asp> and has been rejected.

>>Suites can only include actual files/skins if they are your own

>>property....otherwise they MUST contain links ONLY.

>>

>>However we do look forward to your future submissions.

>>

>>

>>Sincerely,

>>The WinCustomize Staff

 
Reply #29 from WinCustomize Forums Top

TNBrat! .....you need to decide whether you are in collaboration or not.

If you are in colaboration then the opportunity arises that you can effectively rate your own work which is unfair on those who cannot.

Some people have been known to upload other member's works in the past and wondered subsequently why it was not 'appropriate'....until the rating issue was raised.

In the case you raise here perhaps too much 'connection' has been made through links, etc to Pinchecl's works for anyone to distinguish that you are in fact doing nothing more than 'porting'.

In which case, reference to 'collaboration' may not be appropriate, but 'ported and with permission included from' would be more apt.

Admins/moderators can only react to that which is presented to them.

In this case, IF it is a situation of a straight porting then feel free to rate its origin.  If it is NOT a port but is a co-operative venture then refrain.

Reply #30 from WinCustomize Forums Top

Exactly, I would urge everybody to refrain from sarcasm as this is not an issue about porting, but an issue about a cooperative work. 

TNBrat has - as you can read in the above emails - said that she was working on skins in collaboration with Pinchecl. In this case then it would be like rating your own work, and I think everybody would agree that it's wrong.

So I think it's just a matter of making the issue clear: are TNBrat and Pinchecl a skinning team rating their own skins or not?

Reply #32 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Fine then I'm permitted to upload the Suites?

MY point is that you denied me uploading them as Suites and said that we should make a combined name IF we wanted to upload them as Suites....

As I said and will say again, I am gpong by what you guys said!

We wre weorking together...fine we will be "partners" fine I won't rate his skins...So, I am permitted to upload the Suite!

BUT since you rejected the Suite....therefore YOU said that I don't have enough of a partnership to upload the Suite...then I should be permitted to rate his skins!

Reply #33 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I've never done anything more than port his skins.....BUT

The Suites ARE a collaboration ...beause some of the skins are mine and some are his!

Pinchecl and I are working together to create suites of skins to share here at WinCustomize.

So, I will refrain from rating the Suites, because they contain my work, but NONE...and I mean NONE of his skins contain my work....I have never created anything orgiona that he has used to make HIS skins....I only port them....
Reply #34 from WinCustomize Forums Top

It is clear that suites must be either your own work if you upload the skin, or just contain links if the skin is not yours.

So to be doubly clear, you can upload your own work, but only link to the work of others.

Hope that is clear...

Reply #35 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Oh, yeah, I am clear about that....the last Suite I uploaded was Lila....the only skins included in the suite file are mine only and not CaveBear's. Her skins are actually part of the suite but are linked ONLY....as instructed.
Reply #36 from WinCustomize Forums Top
IMO.. if you or a group make /colaborate on a skin.. neither you or the group should be able to rate it .

if you colaborate to make a suite then all parties involved must have access to the upload account so that way all parties have equal say in its distribution ..hence the rule for a joint account ...

if you upload a suite/port that contains anothers graphics, under a (non) joint account ... . links must be used since i believe there is no way to provide a (permission) read me ... (most other progs you can include a permission read me in the zip file)

this is the way i understand it to be ... and i think that its fair .. it covers all bases and ensures that all artists have full controll over their graphics/works....
Reply #37 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Um...yeah...confused here. That's why it was approved - it contains links to the skins you have not created but includes the skins you have created (albeit ported) - but isn't that what I just said???
Reply #38 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I have no problem with that....I understand how it works....I didn't know when my Suites were rejected that it worked that way. I know now...and haven't attempted to upload any Suite file that contained anyone's work since they set me straight.

I also agree that I should not be permitted to rate my own skins. I don't colaborate with anyone on any skins other than Suites....and since I was attempting to upload them under my name...then I was unable to rate them anyway.

I'd like to point out though, that we ARE permitted to upload skins that DO NOT belong to us at all. There are several skins in various author galleries, that the uploading author is NOT the actual skin author....IF the guideline that is SO important pertainin to ensuring that all artists have full control over their work, then why can I upload a skin made by someone other than myself?

BUT all that is not the point of this post....All the emails that Jafo posted...and he left out the one where he cursed me were out of line....there was no need to upload them....they make no deciding factor in this issue.

The facts are simple...
I port Pinchecl's skins.
I have several coloborative works with Pinchecl....they are
CP32 for Suites
CP35 for Suites
CP36 for Suites
CP37 for Suites
CP39 for Suites
2 of the above are available here in my library which means I can't rate them....
ANY other CP skins that I've made are also in my library....so I can't rate them either....
The rest of the CP skins...ie ALL WindowBlinds, SysMetrrix, Rainlendars, Icon Packages...Belong to Pinchecl. He made them, I port them....that's it....So, it's unfair that I cannot rate them. Like I said I don't always rate them high, though I will be happy to admit that the last 2 WBs he posted I DID rate high....but read the comments for them...others agree they are his best yet....he deserves a rating reflecting that.
Reply #39 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Sigh, it is clear you have not understood the points raised earlier. If you wish to continue this discussion with myself or any other moderator please feel free to do so. Otherwise, I fear we are merely flogging a dead horse...
Reply #42 from WinCustomize Forums Top
There's really nothing left to say.

IF you don't want me rating Cliff's skins, then remove my ability to do so, but don't go back and punish him, by removing my previous ratings.

If you are unable to remove that particular part of my rating prividgles, then say "Please, don't rate Pinchel's skin if you are going to port them." But it unnecessary to "continue to watch these submissions." I am an ethical person, and if I say I will NOT rate his skins, because it's a conflict of interests, then be assured, I won't.
Reply #43 from WinCustomize Forums Top

then why can I upload a skin made by someone other than myself?

You can't....as if you do and it's noticed it will be rejected.

Reply #44 from WinCustomize Forums Top

IF it is a situation of a straight porting then feel free to rate its origin. If it is NOT a port but is a co-operative venture then refrain.

That 'should' be the end of this discussion....

Reply #45 from WinCustomize Forums Top
interesting...
Reply #47 from WinCustomize Forums Top
I would like to add one tiny thing...
When I stated that I was a customer, and feel that I deserve at least the affirmation that my thought and opinions matter, I was questioned about my purchases....

"Also, what did you purchase that made you a customer? There are
no registrations under either of your two email addresses nor
the name (my real name removed by me"

I sent my ODNT information to the person that asked the question...The reason that my purchase isn't in my name is because, Object Desktop Network Edition was a gift.

I discovered Style XP before any of the Stardock software and thought "Oh, how great", but in my hunt for skins, I found WC and Stardock....the software, available from Stardock , in my opinion, was/is far more superior to the software from TGT Soft.....and after spending days and days exploring the galleries here at WC and downloading the free skins provided here, I decided that I just HAD to buy the software....

At this time, I had no intention of making skins myself, but wanted the software to be free of limitations...and I also wanted to be able to download as many skins as I wanted.

I had gotten a new computer for Christmas and for my birthday, in January, ALL I wanted was Object Desktop! Once I started opening my new software without limitations and downloading without them too....I could think of nothing more than to learn how to use it..and start creating skins myself!

I have spent hundreds of hours learning and creating because I find skinning to be GREAT fun. It's my hobby...my only hobby anymore...I don't work, so skinning is pretty much all I do....and I LOVE it...or at least I did....

And not only did I love skinning, but I love skins and skinners, in general...even skins I don't care for I find to be art...I don't have to like the skin itself to be able to appreciate the hard work and effort a skinner puts into his/her work...I honestly believe that skinning is an art form...

I've felt lucky to have been permitted by some fantastic skinners, the opportunity to port their work....and even more lucky to have been in communication with these people too. For the most part the skinners I've talked to in one way or another have been friendly and helpful as well as talented and fun!!

I couldn't have been happier had I bought the other software...and I've never enjoyed something...hobby wise....as much as I've enjoyed skinning & collecting (I guess you could say that I'm like a coin collector...I really enjoy downloading and playing with other author's skins)....but after all the pettiness and conflict over the past months...well I suppose it's all lost it's appeal...

At this point I have no desire to even open any of the OD software...or any of the other software that I bought that I use for image editing...and let me say here...that I've spent several hundred dollars on that stuff too....in addition to buying OD, CursorXP Plus and Object Dock Plus...as I'm sure MANY of you have...

All the ugliness has really caused me to not care if I ever make another skin...or rate another skin....and I sure don't feel like making comments or helping the people that contact me everyday asking "How"!

It'd just NOT fun anymore.
Reply #48 from WinCustomize Forums Top
So to be doubly clear, you can upload your own work, but only link to the work of others.


This is so strange, because I see lots of Starones skins uploaded with permission as suites by other people. Yet, I haven't heard any of the requirements that are being forced upon TNBrat and Pinchecl. I didn't see any of these requirements when anyone decided to port the Airlock theme to other applications(hint:Jafo). This is just plain strange and basically unfair.

It would seem to me that such work would make the themes better, and the quality of the themes better for the site. I personally believe that TNBrat and Pinchecl are being unfairly singled out here. But, I see it in life too, so its really nothing new. I had just hoped that WC would be above such things. Oh well...
Reply #49 from WinCustomize Forums Top
Look at the first page of the suites library. Jimbo is using everyone elses skins to make a suite. Elvee used all of Starones skins to make a suite. Yet, it is totally under his account and the rating and counts go to him completely. He has nothing to do with Starone. Yet, I don't see any of these requirements being forced upon them. It is strange, so strange.

So, why all the uproar about TN ports and Pinchecl skins in a suite? So, now TNBrat can't rate Pinchecl skins just because she likes them enough to want to port them to other applications? It would again seem to make the overall theme quality better for all. Why should she be punished for liking a skin enough to port it? Unless, of course she is getting paid for her work.. not. I understand how she can feel that this isn't fun anymore. It wouldn't be fun for me anymore either, to spend all this free time and then being punished and harangued for doing good work. I would love it if someone would port some of my skins over to DesktopX. But, now there seems that they may have to become a offical partner or something..Its ridiclous..we are not getting paid here..it is suppose to be fun..
[Message Edited]
Reply #50 from WinCustomize Forums Top

ChasUGC ...there has been confusion over time with regards to the suite and theme sections......where it becomes 'difficult' to distinguish what is being uploaded by an author and what is being included from others that should not be.

You only upload your own skins....and you link to others'.  The 'suite' will then download and/or install everything 'listed'.

If an author who 'owns' a skin within another's suite decides to remove his skin from public access [as he may wish to, being his right] an included link will 'die' with that skin removal.

If a person actually includes this person's skin then the author of the skin has no control over its removal.

That is a copyright issue....and 'collaborative works' are even worse...if you do not believe me ask ChiChiGirl her opinion.

Suite files are NOT supposed to contain the property of another person, only download links to that property.

Eventually we can get into the existing uploads and sift through them for compliance.

As to 'personal opinions', they are only as valid as their basis of understanding, so are best left unaired.

TN Brat! ....It's only appropriate that you consider the wider picture beyond the insular realm of yours and Pinchecl's creations and understand that the role of the Skinning sites' Administrators is to protect the rights and property of all...from the lofty heights of the Adni18's of this world to the struggling 'Hi, how do I get windows blinds to work?' Newbie who has just discovered our environment.

Most of this is predominantly thankless while our/their best intentions are attacked by factional disruptive people with agendas to promote.....though much of that is down to wanting to say something just for the sake of being heard, not for any real pith or validity.

Go back to post #44....which is a re-iteration of the end of post #29.

This post is a long-winded version of those 2.

End of story.

 Dang.....only 2 't's in 'iteration'.


[Message Edited]