Re getting help or figuring it out on your own, I can see both sides. Yes, you really don't have a complete understanding of skinning if you are handed all the answers without having to go through the trials of learning it first hand. But I also see what seems to be a lack of input from the more experienced skinners. The skinning messageboard has a Unofficial WindowBlinds/SkinStudio Documentation Project. When this first started, I thought "Great idea! All the really good, old time skinners will add a lot of input". But, with few exceptions, little seem to be added except by newer skinners. The same seems to happen with SkinStudio questions that arise about odd behaviours or difficulties. That would seem to breed a belief of 'They (the experienced) know but don't want to spread their knowledge'.

I'm the kind of person that likes to figure things out on my own. Maybe I'm one of those 'tinkerers' that was mentioned, but I can see where some may become discouraged or feel there is an elite group they have no chance of entering.
I'm not familiar with the Mac world of skinning, but I wonder if knowledge is treated as the same sort of arcane secret in that community or if it is shared among the community, thereby producing more quality skinners and skins.

The reason mac themes are more polished and overall better looking than most skins on windows is because most people who use macs dont know how to do these things so the real pros work at it. The same applies for windows too but since windows holds such a large market share there will always be more pros out there for windows than macs. Since there are a lot more people using windows there are a lot of resources for people who want to learn how to skin so we get more of maybe the not so polished skins than macs do.

But if you ask me, there are a lot more ORIGINAL skins in windows than on the mac. Most mac skin all use the same macish looking effects like the glossy buttons and scroll bars, thins like that. Mac users can skin, but i think windows users can truly customize their computers because we have so much selection.

pictoratus: Perhaps this is because these advanced/expert techniques are hard to communicate.

froggy and baker: Alright alright, froggy didn't say what I read into it. Let's just say that I let my imagination run wild on this one.

If you want to see any really mind blowing work for Windows, you generally need to look in the Winamp scene. Outside that, Pixtudio and Skins factory are probably the only people producing truly outstanding stuff.

sad, but true. personally i would have replaced Pixtudio with Mark McQuillan though.

Konfabulator on Windows. Are the widgets cross-platform? I don't see how they can be...so why even worry?

what are you talking about? the widgets are PNG images and XML configs. tell me why that should not be cross-platform compliant. the only thing to become cross-platform is to make two download buttons on their website. one with a Windows-flag for the Windows version (packed as ZIP) and one with an Apple for the Mac version (packed as SIT, SITX, DMG, BIN/HEX, whatever)

moshi: That is like saying that a C++ program is cross platform because the code is a text file.

Many, if not most, of the Konfabulator widgets make use of MacOS specific features and APIs. Sure, the weather widget will work fine. But the CPU temperature ones? You think those will work? Or the task monitor? Or the iTunes controllers?  Obviously with enough work or in the case of iTunes if Apple implemented the same hooking then it can be done. But just because they  both use XML doesn't mean anything.  DesktopX objects are just .PNG and .XML. Does that mean they would work on the Mac if there was a Mac version of DesktopX? No. Not many of them.

But even that isn't really overcoming the other issue - are Mac users going to be willing to make .ZIP versions of their files? How many Windows users would be willing (or able) to create a .DMG file for Mac users?

the level of elitism in the mac scene is far higher than on windows.

if you aren't making pro level graphics that wow EVERYONE you wouldn't even be considered on the top end sites for kaleidascope etc.

while on windows a far lower standard is accepted and therefore the general arena is far more saturated with for lack of a better term...
crap

i am betting that there is the same number of great objects. however there are so many more people making desktopx objects that the great ones are harder to find. but i saw a few on the konfabulator that i wouldn't mind having on my desktop

I wonder how many Mac's Boeing runs Catia or UniGraphics on when designing new Jets or revising older models?

I really do think it boils down to MAC being the accepted standard in Graphic Design and PC being the accepted standard for Mechanical Design and Application Development.

One of the main reasons MAC has held onto k12 schools so intently is because for them to loose that base will really expand the PC beyond anything MAC can really face excluding the hardliner Graphics shops that will refuse anything Gate's. 51 million in grants are being given out by Gates and company, Pinellas County in Florida is switching to Dell's running Windows XP for all class rooms and also teachers laptops and such. Has a bunch of people twisted because they want their MAC too. But the reasoning behind this switch is that kids growing up and learning Mac's who do not happen to go into the Graphic Arts profession have to learn a whole new Computer System and OS. Start them on PC/Windows and they are supposed to be at a higher employment level when they hit 15 and are able to work part time while in school and beyond into adult employment. I am beginning to wonder if MAC has figured out that at this point in time it is best to start working on a model that allows them to Join the PC end user market. Rather than wait and find the ship sailed 5 years earlier?


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ok I'm not an expert in MAC and PC, my question is what is so different between them when it comes to graphic design?

I think the days of Mac being the accepted standard in Graphics Design are sweeping quickly by. Disney is running Photoshop on Linux, as is a lot of Hollywood with their other special effects apps. I know of a couple of local workplaces that have converted to PC from Mac simply because they have more options when the time comes to upgrade, and local support for Macs is pretty shallow

With their slim wedge of the market, there just aren't as many resources available to make it a 'standard'.


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Macs still have a huge presence in the printing industry (in north Amwerica at least).

Photoshop, Illustrator, and Quark Express (indesign and pagemaker to a lesser extent) are the program staples and although they all have PC versions, such a history has been built up in terms of training and usage; it's easier for many to keep the status quo rather than jump over to the pc platform.

As well, so many graphic houses work on macs, that when it comes to receiving files from other companies, you want to be giving mac files and recieving mac files. Despite the claims, not all files built in those major programs tranfer across platforms intact.

So there are large hurdles to be stradled before macs loose one of thier original bases of use and support.

gee, my spelling is just dandy tonight

http://www.macaquarium.com/imacaquarium.htm

I've heard of making aquariums out of old TVs before.

hi jesse! I was just about to start a thread to ask where you are!

well i agree with hippy's comment saying that more pro use mac. for example the icons that are made for mac on this website are way better then the ones here IP

I just haven't posted as much here since I do visit other sites and I have been busy experimenting with making BootSkins and playing Nintendo 64.

Frogboy: while i am perfectly happy with Rainmeter and should not really give anybody advice on business tactics i think it would be pretty easy for Arlo Rose to ask skinners if they would allow him to repackage widgets for the other platform. this way widgets could also be tested on both platforms before they get uploaded to the website. why are you permanently thinking about DMG files btw? SIT files will work just as nice and can created with drag and drop in Windows.

i just downloaded a cpu-monitoring widget and had a look at it. unlike DesktopX objects, Konfabulator widgets seem not to come with binaries, that´s a big difference (btw: i hope every DesktopX skinner has a fat NO WARRANTIES license included in what he distributes ). so it´s just about interpreting that XML file. i´m pretty sure the Windows konfabulator.exe will be able to get data from perfmon.

moshi, don't you think throwing a standard common sense *no warranty* clause around like it is something only DesktopX developers should use is a bit off?

Your assuming a lot here don't you think? iTunes was going to kill Winamp and Media player from what some claimed. As soon as it hit the PC it was going to just blaze through the net onto every desktop and people would see what is so great about MAC software. Well it's a freaking hog, a big fat, hairy hog that was on my drive for two days and then in the bit bucket with a blink of an eye. It ate resources, it not only ate them, it horded resources like a hog in a trough, pilling ram up for it's own use and slowly eating more and more of that which it did not have in reserve.

Konfabulator *MIGHT* work ok on a PC it *MIGHT* work outstanding on a PC and it *MIGHT* be the big brother to that HOG iTunes for Windows...



MIGHT seems like something I would hold reservations from backing so strongly, lots of looser out at the track that put everything on a horse or dog that *MIGHT* have won but didn't, more than enough for me to attempt playing around being one over a piece of software that *MIGHT* actually stick around on my drive longer than two days...

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Positive community reinforcement:

Xav73

Good example of that. He got very negative reviews but got some community help and positive reinforcement as well.

Now he make far better skins than before.


Skinning commercially is going to happen, particularly since the programs that get skinned are better and more stable and as the word gets out.

The question is how will the acknowledgeable in the community will handle it.

Will there be people who will do commercial skins AND free skins too? Will we start feeling that the only reason to help others or do this is to make money? Will we withhold information so the 'competition' doesn't get it?

I think artist should have the opportunity to get paid for their work, but also have an understanding of where they came from and got support from: The free community of skinners.

Moshi,

People CAN extend their objects with their own DLLs. But they don't need to. I can make a CPU meter object right now in less than 10 seconds and it's 17K, no DLLs.

https://www.joeuser.com/brad/lamemeter.dxpack

99% of DX objects have no binaries. They use either XML or INI inside. Having the capability to extend ones objects themselves with new functionality is something I conider to be an advantage. I've been a Konfabulator user from day 1 and have hung out on the forums there and there has been a big demand for widget makers to be able to extend the capabilities of Konfabulator themselves. DesktopX allows this. Konfabulator doesn't. If Arlo doesn't think of a given feature, it ain't going to happen. There is no Brazen Weep of the Konfabulator world because Konfabulator doesn't allow people like him to do what he does.

On the other topic, I totally agree with you that Arlo could ask his widget makers to let him convert the various .dmg files (most of the widgets are .dmg btw, not .sit) to .zip or whatever. But it would be a manual process. You cannot convert a .dmg to a .zip. .sit, on the other hand could be.

All of which is beside the point. Konfabulator MAY be the greatest thing since sliced bread. But what bugs me is the general belief that anything on the Mac must be great and when it's ported over it is a gift to us poor Windows users. iTunes is a 40MB pig. If anyone other than Apple had made it, it would have been a foot note. But because it came from the Mac, it gets a free marketing ride.

From a technological perspective, Samurize is superior to Konfabulator. And it's free. SysMetrix too. But do these programs get all the hype? No. Even though both Samurize and SysMetrix can do anything Konfabulator does, they don't get mentioned on TechTV. In fact, TechTV said there is no PC equivalent to Konfabulator when in fact there are SEVERAL. The two I mentioned, several other programs, and DesktopX which has many many features beyond Konfabulator.

Commercial skinning has been going on for a long time now, joe. See Pixtudio, TheSkinsFactory and SkinPlant for example.

Will there be people who will do commercial skins AND free skins too?

On behalf of myself and Mike, I'd just like to say *ahem*......

And a nice, warm 'ahem' to you too, Hip...