kona, I'm probably too young to be telling you this... and I'm sure you already know. Let me remind you...

Everyone has opinions. The only difference is some agree on a subject and others disagree, and there are those who feel indifferent either way and those who don't care and sit on the fence...

We all can be "judged" different ways for what we say and think, that's normal. Don't be afraid to voice your opinions. There's no need to voice it over the msgboard if you don't want a lot of people answering, but I'm sure the admins would not mind you emailing them and talking about it. I'm just more hot-headed and enjoy being flamed... for some odd reason. I like to see my thinking challenged, and I enjoy offering people my views whether they agree or disagree.

Disagreements allow improvements, that's the way I see things

I like yur point of view.

kona...your reference to 'GOD' is duly noted.

It's hardly a clever career move, now, is it?...

Youii....I'll explain this only once.

When a full image is uploaded and accessible on a website for all to download it is called 'distribution', something which falls under the realm of copyright.
When an artist, in this case, Dangeruss creates a work, logically he will wish to display it to others. He does this by [in this case] uploading to his own site, which attracts a certain audience and to others, such as Wincustomize.com and Deviantart.com, where he is certain to receive a wider or more diverse audience. Because he [Dangeruss] has personally uploaded his work to places of HIS CHOICE he knows he can trust the work to remain under his control, he can delete it at will and he can trust the 'standards' and 'reputations' of these sites and their ethics of copyright protection/defense. If, at any time he wishes to withdraw that work he knows he can and has access. His knowledge of those persons controlling these sites will leave him confident in the realization that were he unable to access or 'manage' his works for whatever reason they would be readily withdrawn for him on request.

This site in question has an English speaking Australian Admin who obtained Russ's work from Deviantart.com and redistributed it without permission as an intact full image on his site and without consent or even credit.

It is simple copyright violation, or theft.

No need for a debate about it at all.

Dangeruss is employed in the graphics profession. That, and a 'history' between himself and his friends here at Wincustomize.com was sufficient to predetermine that the wall should NOT have been on that site.
As a professional, it is safe to say that this specific work was not created on pirated software, whatever....a totally off-target, inflammatory statement intended to cloud the issue at best.

If anyone has a problem with the 'Official' handling of this issue, read my thread in the Rip Reporting section on Devart....I'm not repeating myself ad nauseum.

As I've said before, flaming gets no-one nowhere fast.

If you want to 'fix things' a modicum of polite tact helps.

The final insult was [to me] having my IP banned and the suggestion alleged that I had mis-represented the case.
It was more the fact that none there had the bottle to admit their error...

So if someone committed a crime, you take it upon yourself to be international police, along with everyone else who posted on that website, who has the right to tell people what to do and what not to do? You mentioned in your post about litigation if the wallpaper was not removed. Then later hinting that you also live in Australia... what to go after him? (That's my assumption, btw) Honestly, do you not think you went too far?

It is a simple violation of theft, treated in the most mobish way possible, imo, raiding a site and harassing them with numerous posts (written with the exact same message over and over in different words)is not a violation of spam?

Banning you and the rest of the users was not an insult just because you believed you were carrying the torch of justice and they had no right/reason to have banned you. They banned you because they felt their security violated. I would if some guy I have never met in my life threatened to come to my house and do me harm if I don't remove some wallpaper from my site (and how much more outrageou would that sound when he may only have been trying to show it to his friends). As for the wallpaper, I'm sorry if you can't make everyone care about the copyright laws. If everyone had cared, warez would never have been a problem, there would be no use of companies trying to tact copyright protection on their products left and right.

Just because one didn't care did not justify an act of spam on his/her site nor the comment towards a lawsuit that should not have been necessary either. Yes, he stole, but you cannot correct a crime with another crime, whether it be spam or threat.

My view of the entire situation. You know, when people use to piss me off years back in school by banging on my table... me screaming "SHUT UP!!" at them sure didn't stop them... it only drove them on. Funny how the "wiser" people who taught me that sure didn't apply it themselves in the future.

Now, if I remember correctly, there may have been one or two individuals who were rather nice, but over all, the treatment was rather childish.

When you've actually created something and shared it with the rest of us, come back and give your opinions on artist's rights Youji. Until that time, I suggest you stop making inflamatory statements and pretending to know what is in the best interest of those of us who contribute to the community.

As Jafo said, the 'warez' issue has absolutely nothing to do with this situation. I'm sure there are quite a few people here who use copied or cracked versions of their software, but for every one who does there are probably four or five honest people who are using legitimate purchased versions. That's all down to personal choice and moral standards. Again, that's not the issue here.

I'm perfectly willing to admit that I use Kazaa to download individual new songs by artists. I then listen to them, much the same as I would listen to them on the radio, and then buy the albums of those artists I like. In the end, the record labels are making more money out of me than if I had to buy music blindly. Again, not the issue.

You can argue the case of free speech and 'screw the man' tactics as much as you like, but you won't get an audience here. We take pride in our work and will fight to the end to see that the integrity of our work, and the work of those we consider to be our friends, is protected. It's got nothing to do with arrogance or having a God-complex, but rather to do with having self-respect and being willing to stand up for ourselves.

I'm not an admin.

At no point did Jafo insinuate that he would cause physical harm to the admins of that site. In my eyes it would take an extremely paranoid and emotionally unbalanced individual to interpret his comment that way. He was merely implying that it wouldn't take much to report the site to the local authorities, and I believe he spelled that out pretty clearly. Oh wait... your whole argument bases itself on the idea that Jafo gave no thought to contacting the authorities and took the law into his own hands. Are you seeing the flaw in your logic yet?

Youji....I will explain only one more time, as you appear slow to understand.

I posted a total of three messages, none were abusive or confrontational. They stated fact of law. I contacted the person who uploaded the work also.
That is the sum total of my interaction with that site.
I did not spam.
I requested something be removed.
It was claimed they had rights to display it.
They were wrong.

Clearly you are either deliberately being obtuse or you have a comprehension problem.

The issue we, that is, those of us who DO create, submit and display works publicly is we are forced to defend our lawful legitimate inalienable rights against ignorant people who believe it is all some mild amusement.

However, I may help administer a site [this one], but I am otherwise not my brother's keeper, to be banned for the alleged transgressions of others, but nor am I an idiot savant standing idly by while another's rights are raped and abused.

On many occasions it is because I have a greater 'handle' on the English language than some whose works are systematically [and often] stolen, and some at significant financial loss.

We, as artists ARE the International Police of this graphic community. We protect our own, and maintain good relations with other similar sites for mutual support andassistance in keeping Artist's rights as well protected as humanly possible.

If I MUST re-post thse messages posted on that site to verify their content and prove my case I can, and am certain others read them and can verify their authenticity, though I believe the thread was deleted.

First an admin, now a journeyman. I'm started to see a similarity here between the ranks, well, between a few people anyways.

Has my ideas and artwork been stolen before? Oh yeah, of course, in matters worse than this fight to take down an uploading of Dangeruss's work. Just think, my high school project back so many years ago in 9th grade... my ideas... taken from me by a student who claimed he wanted to help me make it better, sturdier... took it from me and earned himself a fancy little A for his project. Since the topics were chosen off a piece of paper, I couldn't prove who came up with the pop-up idea first. It was my work though, stolen and given some idiot an A he did not deserve.

Warez is stolen material... and using it. No, the guy didn't do that, he didn't rip the artwork nor did he sell it, just uploaded it on his site and showed it to his friends... my theory.

I assumed was the flaw in my logic. My flaw was not thinking like the rest of you.

Yeah, defenders... I've only played that role too many times, only to be chewed and spit back out again... why? Only because I don't skin nor do I make graphics.

Slow to comprehend... and here I thought I was pretty smart for not coming to this site and asking for a free version of anything.

Threads may have been deleted, but I can read what Jafo wrote on the second page of this thread.

Listen Youji, we are not cops, as you said yourself. We are just artists, and we are friends. As such, when we notice that some of us has some works of his distributed without his consent, we stand up for him. That's what friends who care do. If you ever walked into a room and noticed that some people are causing harm to a friend of yours - whatever way - would you not step up and speak for him?

Anyway, the fact is that most people do not understand copyright laws. Most of the time, when we notice copyright infrigements of works by friends of ours, we only need to inform the people how things work.
If you download a wallpaper and want upload it to your site to show it off to your friends, the right and legal way to do it is ask the author first if he agrees. Simple as that. If he says yes, then good for you, and if he says no, it just proves that you shouldn't have posted it in the first place.

Author like to have control over the distribution of their works. It's their priviledge. If they make modifications to a piece of work, they need to know who to contact to send the new version to, if they want to stop distributing a particular peice of work, they also need to know where to go to remove it.

It is not exageration, it is the right thing to do.
Because something is too common, is that a reason to stop trying to stop it or better inform people? No. If half the men hit their wives and girlfriends, would that make it ok? Would you try to do something to defend a female friend of yours if she was beeing beat, or would just shrug and say everybody does it anyway?

So your only experience of having your work stolen was as a child in school? My, you have had it rough...

My theory is that if we keep saying this to you enough times you might actually read the words and form them into a coherent thought in your head: He uploaded it to his site to distribute the complete wallpaper to other users of the site. It wasn't for 'show and tell'. It wasn't to say 'Hey guys! Isn't this Dangeruss a great artist? You should go to his site and take a look at his work!' It was to illegally redistribute a stolen work of art. Plain and simple.

As for my being a 'Journeyman', what does that have to do with anything whatsoever? All it proves is I've uploaded some of my work which was moderately well received. Does that mean that I'm no longer capable of logical and objective thought? You seem to have a real issue with authority, and that is exactly the attitude which propogates these kind of copyright problems. It's always about 'screwing The Man', and never about rational thought.

Careful paxx. You're only allowed to make a comment like that if you've got a 'title' before your name...

paxx,

What the guy did was wrong. I will not deny he did not commit a crime. I also believe in standing up for friends. I only wish I had people to stand up for me when I was being used left and right. Do I feel anger that these people stole from me? Yes, I do, but it's over and in the past now. Some of which I thought were childish. I learn from the lessons, and I'm sure whoever that child is probably still had to learn his lesson

Dangeruss is an exceptionally good author. I've been to this website, and I've known his name for years. I've known your name for years, and I've known half of this community's members for at least... a year or so.

I understand in asking people to right the wrongs we know of. I've hunt down msgboard forum admins to demand that they warn another forum that they ripped off a friend of mine's design. I fought hard, and those people did ignore me, telling me that they don't care. It made me angry, it made my blood boil... I understand what everyone went through.

I never said stop trying. I do say, however, to stop spamming people. I feel like it is the reserved right for the author to have a chat with the violator first. If Dangeruss's artwork is stolen, it's his right to talk to the person first. I think that's reasonable. It's not fair to him to have a bunch of people attack him without letting the original author have his whack at it.

Don't friends jump in when they realize their friend need help because he was being... taken advantaged of or didn't know he was about to be harmed in some way? Don't we usually throw him a note of warning first?

Going in with screams of rip which weren't true were unfair. He did not rip, he only posted a piece of artwork by another author without consent. I didn't see anyone kindly asking him to remove it. I didn't see the need of a lawsuit.

your name stands for peace, paxx. What is your thought about people accusing others for something they didn't do... or to even charge in there without first knocking and asking polietly?

let me rephrase a sentence.. "I will not deny he did commit a crime."

Perhaps this 9th grade Highschool project would have been the perfect opportunity to become educated in the rights of an individual and what 'authorship' actually means.

Sure, some idiot merely wanted to show the world how kewl a piece of art was.....but he did it in exactly the same way as a person who sees a Ferrari in a parking lot says 'wow, neat set of wheels...gotta show it to the guys', and proceeds to pop the door, hot-wire it and drive on down the road.

It is a crime, nothing less, and identical.

Again....posting anothers property, without consent is copyright theft. It is unfortunate that the word 'rip' is often used to make things seem kewl and trendy.
They are not.
All that results is a battle of semantics about the word and meaning of 'rip', when the issue is in fact unauthorised posting of another's property.

Nothing to do with credits or claiming ownership....that only arose when someone tried to be clever and claim Deviantart.com's copyright disclaimer covered them as well.

If you have been through all this so much before, why is it you appear to have never clearly understood it?

One of which should be locked behind bars for moronic thinking and the other to be told gently that he committed a crime.

Now, if you want to be really picky (and no, I don't believe in this) but the man stealing the car may just grab some friends and drool over the car still in the parking lot, as well as our culprit wallpaper stealer was drooling at it over with this friends over the internet... one never left the parking lot, the other didn't leave the internet.

All right, stupid, but I did mention I didn't believe in it.

Very well, I think I've tried hard enough in arguing my opinion. I can see where you're coming from and why. Can't really say any of you were wrong either...

What really gets me is the lack of ethics shown daily by all these kids...

I do understand it. I only disagree with the tactics, and I enjoy knowing what certain actions will bring certain consequences. Now, the best way to know where people stand is to push them into telling me. I was hunting for a large part of opinions, risking getting exiled of course.

Same crime, everyone has a different way of dealing with it.

c242,

then you have a new mission. You are to teach all these kids what ethics mean

I hope you've watched the movie "Election"

Youji: All I see in your words is a total lack of respect. You may take all this lightly and wonder what the fuss is about, but if you had spent days or weeks making something, only to have it stolen, (you cannot argue that breach of copyright is theft) then you would be annoyed too. But wait! you said it has happened to you! with your school project. Remember how you felt when your classmate stole it?, well that's how we feel about having our work stolen.

My honest opinion is that you talk utter drivel. I don't even understand why you are here spouting this nonsense, unless you are a friend of the person that owns that website. If you are, then your friendship is misplaced.

I suggest you re-read the last paragraph of Paxx's post above, and then try to defend your position again. You are totally out of order.

If you really want to be pedantic about the car example, they effectively took the car from the car park where the owner had it and put it in their own car park for their friends to look at, and where the owner would have no idea of its location. In that case you could still say the car didn't leave the planet, just as you have said the wallpaper didn't leave the internet.

They also gave free rides in that Ferrari to all their friends without telling them it was a stolen vehicle. Who knows how many people currently have that wallpaper on their Mac desktop thinking it was made by a person called 'Devianart.com'? You can't really blame them for not knowing, but you can make damn sure they're informed of the crime their 'friend' has made them a part of.

Going in with screams of rip which weren't true were unfair. He did not rip, he only posted a piece of artwork by another author without consent.

Rip: Posting a piece of artwork without the authors consent.

You are laughable!

YouJi...if it were a screenshot of a desktop that just happened to have Russ's tank on it....partly obscured by icons and other 'junk' it would have been 'fair-use' and quite legal.

The mechanics of the Internet is that generally if you can see an image you can download a copy of it in one form or another and it's on your hard-drive, from a source unauthorised by the original artist, and most usually without any form of genuine credit to its origin and author.

That wall being made available for download means the Ferrari was actually no longer in the car lot, and not only that, the compliance plate was removed along with the number plates.

If mac15 had asked I think it's a safe bet that Dangeruss would have chucked him the keys and said 'sure, take it for a spin and show your friends....scratch it and you buy me another'...and that would be that.


But it wasn't....

Hey grayhaze, cut me some slack. I did say I didn't believe that far-fetched twisted thing

Boxxi,
I know all that. No, it's not right, and no one should stop fighting. I think I mentioned that in one of my posts. Thing is, there're too many factors that play into too many things. Should capital punishment have been used on a child who killed? Capital punishment is used on adults who killed.

Same crime, murder, but different results/punishment.

However, I believe every indivdual is different, and you treat all situations differently with one common goal: to bring this person to an understanding that once may be forgivable, but the second time may cause him/her to gain a bit of pain.

I'm not trying to cut Dangeruss's credit in half, oh no... I would never have thought of it. I, however, see it as a piece of work admired/liked by many others... and it adds to Dangeruss's accomplishments, however wrongly the appreciation was carried out.

Good work wouldn't be stolen, but stealing isn't right either. How many good artists do you know face up against stolen work all the time? I'm sure all of you who have shared your opinions have. Now, you're good enough people want to copy you. That to me is a small compliment, but a wrong way to present a compliment.

In this case, I prefer to have people go gentle. If they're just morons who steal for fun, hey, be my guest, unleash the wrath of all artists out there on them. Skin them alive, boil them in oil, I'm sure the Chinese have some books out there describing the ways of torture you can perform.