The reason why we are still argueing over it, is because we're all in desperate need of attention.

This is one of this discussions where everyone has their point of view and sticks to it no matter what. Nothing is going to come out of it and it can go on for years.

Hmm, so it's actually a debate.

One thought about the French poll.
The French can be weird sometimes. Lets not forget that in the Presidential elections last year, Le Pen got almost 18% of the votes. That shocked a lot of people. It's huge. For those who don't know Le Pen, he's basically considered fascist by most people. One of the things he was promoting in his campaign was basically to kick out of France all the immigrants, even the citizens that don't have French origins. Of course, 18% is a far cry from a majority, but it's still waaaay too much.

I heard on Leno last night that the French are now supporting the US actions??????? Is this true? I haven't checked any of the newswires yet, but you guys are all well informed.

U.S. troops today found thousands of boxes of white powder, nerve agent antidote and Arabic documents on how to engage in chemical warfare at an industrial site south of Baghdad

Saddam's cocaine stash

He has to pay for this war somehow, right?

Or maybe it's laundry detergent?

I recieved this as an email. Talk amongst yourselves.

The other day, my nine year old son wanted to know why we were at war. My husband looked at our son and then looked at me. My husband and I were in the Army during the Gulf War and we would be honored to serve and defend our country again today. I knew that my husband would give him a good explanation. My husband thought for a few minutes and then told my son to go stand in our front living room window. He told him:
"Son, stand there and tell me what you see?" "I see trees and cars and our neighbors houses." he replied.
"OK, now I want you to pretend that our house and our yard is the United States of America and you are President Bush." Our son giggled and said "OK." "Now son, I want you to look out the window and pretend that every house and yard on this block is a different country." my husband said. "OK Dad, I'm pretending."
"Now I want you to stand there and look out the window and see that man come out of his house with his wife and he has her by the hair and is hitting her. You see her bleeding and crying. He hits her in the face, he throws her on the ground, then he starts to kick her to death. Their children run out and are afraid to stop him, they are crying, they are watching this but do nothing because they are kids and afraid of their father. You see all of this son....what do you do?" "Dad?" "What do you do son?!" " call the police, Dad."
"OK. Pretend that the police are the United Nations and they take your call, listen to what you know and saw but they refuse to help. What do you do then son?!" "Dad, but the police are supposed to help!" My son starts to whine. "They don't want to son, because they say that it is not their place or your place to get involved and that you should stay out of it," my husband says. "But Dad...he killed her!!" my son exclaims.
"I know he did...but the police tell you to stay out of it. Now I want you to look out that window and pretend you see our neighbor who you're pretending is Saddam turn around and do the same thing to his children." "Daddy...he kills them?" "Yes son, he does. What do you do?" "Well, if the police don't want to help, I will go and ask my next door neighbor to help me stop him." our son says. "Son, our next door neighbor sees what is happening and refuses to get involved as well. He refuses to open the door and help you stop him," my husband says. "But Dad, I NEED help!!! I can't stop him by myself!!" "WHAT DO YOU DO SON?" Our son starts to cry. "OK, no one wants to help you, the man across the street saw you ask for help and saw that no one would help you stop him. He stands taller and puffs out his chest. Guess what he does next son?" "What Daddy?" "He walks across the street to the old ladies house and breaks down her door and drags her out, steals all her stuff and sets her house on fire and then...he kills her. He turns around and sees you standing at the window and laughs at you. WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!" "Daddy..." "WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!"
Our son is crying and he looks down and he whispers, "I close the blinds, Daddy." My husband looks at our son with tears in his eyes and asks him... "Why?" "Because Daddy.....the police are supposed to help...people who needs it....and they won't help....You always say that neighbors are supposed to HELP neighbors, but they won't help either...they won't help me stop him...I'm afraid....I can't do it by
myself...Daddy.....I can't look out my window and just watch him do all these terrible things and...and.....do nothing...so....I'm just going to close the blinds....so I can't see what he's doing........and I'm going to pretend that it is not happening." I start to cry. My husband looks at our nine year old son standing in the window, looking pitiful and ashamed at his answers to my husbands questions and he tells him...."Son?" "Yes, Daddy." "Open the blinds because that man....he's at your front
door..."WHAT DO YOU DO?!!!!" My son looks at his father, anger and defiance in his eyes. He balls up this tiny fists and looks his father square in the eyes, without hesitation he says: "I DEFEND MY FAMILY DAD!! I'M NOT GONNA LET HIM HURT MOMMY OR MY SISTER, DAD!!! I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM, DAD, I'M GONNA FIGHT HIM!!!!!"
I see a tear roll down my husband's cheek and he grabs my son to his chest and hugs him tight, and cries..."It's too late to fight him, he's too strong and he's already at YOUR front door son.....you should have stopped him BEFORE he killed his wife. You have to do what's right, even if you have to do it alone,
before......it's too late." my husband whispers. THAT scenario I just gave you is WHY we are at war with Iraq. When good men stand by and let evil happen is the greatest EVIL of all. Our President is doing what is right. We, as a free nation, must understand that this war is a war of humanity. WE must remove this
evil man from power so that we can continue to live in a free world where we are not afraid to look out our window and see crimes on humanity. So that my nine year old son won't grow up in a world where he feels that if he just "closes" that blinds the atrocities in the world won't affect him. Today the second day of "WAR on IRAQ" I felt compelled to write this and pass it along. Hopefully, you will understand the lesson my husband tried to teach our son. "YOU MUST NEVER BE AFRAID TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT! EVEN IF YOU HAVE TO DO IT ALONE!"

Hum PG, good story, but it could also be written in another way.
It's not that simple.

"While many people think in terms of black and white, the world is full of grey tones .... but if you add more white to the grey you still only get more grey .... "

What in the heck does that mean?

just guessing: You try to add your "Truth" to the situation, there are still many other possibilites?

paxx: The inspectors hadn't made a dent in what they needed to do... in 10 years. The mighty, unarmed Hans Blix was supposed to be able to find mobile equipment and material in an area the size of California? It worked in South Africa because they were *begging* to be inspected. Iraq was laughing at him.

UN inspections are like suggesting the police public announce that they are scouring an area for drugs only to later drive around in a bunch of little white trucks knocking on doors. The only reason they even 'found' the Al Samoud missiles was because the Iraqis were openly manufacturing them, thinking that no one would notice they could be refitted for more range.

***

The US government feels strongly about this, they shared their feelings with the UN and were stonewalled, and made a decision accordingly.

So, where does that leave us? In a place that is comfortably 'black and white'. If you are Iraqi, you can fight, or give up. If you are the the coalition, you can fight or give up. If you are anyone else you can wait for it to be over. The UN has moved on, they are already talking about what to do with Iraq.

SO, to re-emphasize the point of my post, I really don't need to feel smart or right about this. I'm not fighting on either side. I'm not making the decisions about what to do in Iraq, and I'm not a citizen of Iraq that has profited from, or been victimized by, Saddam Hussein.

As a citizen I can take my government to task about it in the next election. As citizens of other non-combatant nations, you can pressure your government to punish us economically, or *gasp* support us in removing someone we all agree to be a despicable leader. Surely those who want peace this much wouldn't be interested in the sort of threat it would take to force the US to pull out now.

Arguing about this war now is like arguing over the weather... *yesterday's* weather. Move on. Too many good brains here to be rehashing the same arguments over and over.

**

That said, I'm moving to 'verse' mode in all posts regarding the war in Iraq. You've been previously warned. Stand down, there's no reason to unleash needless Haiku on the world.

Hey Rated PG, your story reminded me another story I heard a long time ago when I was in College.

A little boy asks his dad:
- Dad, what's the government? How does it work?
- Well, said the dad, lets bring it down to a smaller scale so you can understand it better. Take our familly: imagine I am the Government, your mom is the opposition, the maid is the people and you are the future. Do you understand?
- Hum, I'm not sure, says the boy...
- Well, think about it a little bit. Sleep on it and we'll talk in the morning.
That night the little boy had diarrhea in the middle of the night and made a mess all over his bed. He gets up and goes to his parent's bedroom. His mother is sleeping soundly, but is alone in bed. He then proceeds to go see the maid. He slowly opens the door and sees his dad engaged in intense activities with the maid. The boy is somewhat in shock and goes back to bed.
The next morning his dad asks him:
- So, son. Did you think about what we discussed last night?
- Yes, daddy.
- So do you understand now?
- Oh yes! While the opposition is sleeping, the government screws the people and the future is in deep sh...

#1387 by Citizen donarumo - 4/4/2003 11:40:48 AM
"While many people think in terms of black and white, the world is full of grey tones .... but if you add more white to the grey you still only get more grey .... "

What in the heck does that mean?


I took it as: If there is doubt, and you ad more truth to it, there is still that doubt. It might seem more clear, but there is still doubt.

the residual doubt disappears when the ratio of grey to added white becomes less than 1/255. i have this on the best authority from ColorPic, and everyone knows that CP is an unbiased observer.

I agree with paxx about your story The Rated PG. It could be easiely rewritten to say the same thing about America.


paxx, I believe the inspection issue would have never worked. Eventually someone would say that they found nothing so stop the inspections. So if the inspections was to contain Saddam then why end it after years of not finding anything if the idea was to contain Saddam?

Also the inspections were no way near strong enough but the UN made it as Iraq goverment frienly as possible. Th UN could have basically took over the country to assure the weapons where not there once it became clear that Saddam would slowly talk about stuff.


bakerstreet _ I agree with many of your assestments, but nothing is black and white. Bush made things black and white. That does not mean it is black and white. If things were so clearly black and white there would be no decision to make. He made a choice, we are not talking about does gravity excists or not, we are talking about how to handle a situation. Black and white is not a situation.




kona, nobody yells at you. what are you talking about???


j/k

Pink is not girlish... in some cultures.


2+2=4 Black and white... or is it?

A Desision to Make... I think I have a DesktopX coming up called that.

Decision = Desision

when joe said he likes pink, he made no specification about who was wearing it.

wait...

Desision = Decision.

yeah thats it.


Men look good in a nice pink shirt and a brown/pin striped siut. Put on a nice tie, get some shoes and woem will hound you for the whole day.

And men will think you are the man.

I like pink, and flowers also, though I could do without our house being Peach(pink) with White trim.
But, my wife wanted, loves it and she deserves what makes her happy, so.

Hey, I may be all in favour of peace, totally against physical violence in any form, but I still HATE pink. Gotta be macho in some small way, no?

I don't get the pink house thing... maybe a soft rose red.

I think there was a childrens story about a pink house on a block of rowhouses. Gosh I wish I could remember it. I loved that story.

Pink and white trim... I can't see it. Has anyone valued your house after the color change?

anyway...
http://msnbc.com/news/895233.asp

joe- i've never been hounded by "woem". is it painful?

Joe, I'm not ashamed to admit that reading that link made me cry..... (but I don't like pink)