bakerstreet...

sounds like a witch hunt to me. your guilty if there is enough evidence, and if you don't find any, keep looking.


As I have written before, ther is not country that is 'clean'. It is more of a matter of where it is best or what type of atmospher creates more check on the goverment, businesses, and even the police.

If there are conspiricies, be aware that there are many that fight against each other and end up distroing any actions. Also keep in mind that it has to be hidden, so they have to worry about that as well. Then you got to worry about other conspitirors in the conspiricy team.

Then you have to control... then you have to kill...

afetr a while it get very hard to have this secret organization. Now in Iraq it is way easier.

All those watchdog agancies might have something going as a conspiricy to stop corporate america.

why woory about it? the truth is the truth, we just have to see it and understand it. Lets hope that with all these conspirities that we don't destroy ourselves.

On another note:
Hey, do you have a picture of that pink house??? I keep thinking about it. Just give me a corner of it... if you have a garden then let me see that too.

I think pink is a underrated color.

Xerraire: don't bother. *If* whatever we found ends up being WMD, anyone here who is against the war is gonna just claim we planted it. Anyone who can say we supplied the explosives for the WTC bombing and attacked Afghanistan so we could put in an oil pipeline is not gonna believe we found anything there. That's why DavidK has already predicted the WMD 'excuse' has fallen on its face, even before the fighting stops and we have a chance to look. He's not gonna believe them if we *DO* find them.


joe: yup. I believe *devoutly* if we didn't have embedded journalists as proof, we'd be getting the Iraqi version of the war shoved down our throats right here. There are people I know and love here that would be eager to believe that there are tens of thousands of civilian deaths and that our forces are 'on the run'.

I don't understand how one decides who to blindly trust in this world. They think of the world as a huge, sympathetic civilian community controlled by antagonistic governments. That's an assumption that can turn on you really fast when you see those supposedly righteous and progressive-minded civilians burning your flag and screaming for their military to attack you. It will *always* be 'us' and 'them', even among our closest allies.

**

I thought it was funny today when the Russians declared that the US forces were trying to kill them. They said that they were fired upon *continually* for 40 minutes, and yet none of their vehicles were destroyed and no one was killed. Create-Your-Own international incident, anyone?

bakerstreet, I WILL bother. As some seem to be spoon fed a dosage of news that doesn't remotely seem complete to me.

I understand what you mean though, yes, there is such anti-american sentiment here, that they can certainly misconstrue anything to even furthur continue in that vein.

I could say the same to you
But I see that you do continue to 'bother' with this thread
I enjoy your remarks.

Joe, I'm sorry but I couldn't figure out what you said in that post at all... maybe it's just me... I did get the bit about the pink at the end.

Baker, you seem to thrive on putting words in my mouth and ridiculing me without seeming to care what I post. And then you say it's a lost cause trying to reason with me because I won't listen or I'm a whacko or something. You're in little box. Come out and join the rest of us, we're actually discussing things. btw - nothng I've posted isn't true, though some is my own opinions or thoughts, the facts are all true.

I don't doubt the Iraqi's have nerve gas, we gave them tons of the stuff in the 80's. They even dug up buttloads of anthrax to show the inspectors when asked. It is interesting that they haven't used any since we're accusing them of "fighting dirty".

Is there such thing as fighting dirty?
War is war.
I didn't expect them to fight by any 'rulebook'

Aparently there is Xerraire, though I think at the point that you're fighting an invading army that attacked you the rules are kind of irrelevant. The American revolution was won partly because of the revolutionaries disguising themselves as indians, mingling with civilians and hiding behind trees to ambush and run away. I think the British complained that we were fighting dirty.

Iraq's army according to Henry Kissinger and Madeline Albright is at best 30% of what it was in 1991. I'm surprised they've done anything at all to slow down the advance. There's no doubt as to the outcome of this, America will take over Iraq, done deal.

But we dangerous fools gonna kick some serious booty....!!!!

Funny you would mention the American Revolution and how we fought. I thought of the same tactic.

However, I still wouldn't equate it with fake surrenders, car bombs, and hiding behind civilians, would you?

Australian 'Rules of Engagement' prohibit the use of land-mines.
In fact, or navy engineers are busy clearing the bloody equivalent out of the port/s.

I still find it mildly interesting tha the US Forces have no such 'limitation'.

Then, again, who's to say EXACTLY what our 150 SAS are 'up to'?....3 weeks of 'deep penetration' probably means removing 'any threat' of discovery, civilian and otherwise...

Jafo are you saying the US is using land mines? I mean, you certainly do imply it in a backhanded way. And where is your information coming from that we have no such limitation?

From our Govt....it was stated we would not be acting under direct US command and their rules of engagement as theirs were at odds with our own.

I DID NOT say the US is using landmines, just that they do not/will not/have not prohibited their use.

Not quoting some CNN crap, just our own Minister of Defence, etc.

I imagine if your goal is to kill someone so they can't kill you, you'd use desperate measures. I don't think any part of war is defensible but that's just me. You must admit, the level of dedication to the cause in a suicide bomber is pretty high. I wonder what it would be like if we were being invaded... how people would fight in a war on our own soil. Hope I never find out...

The US does use mines... and cluster bombs that leave little yellow packages laying around that explode when you pick them up. Remember in Afganistan they said it was a real problem because the little bombs looked exactly like the food packages they were dropping from planes. Just a different color, the food was blue.

crae, 'country xx' is Chile.
jam, what's this 'we gunna kick butt' rubbish?
'we' implies your participation ...?????
Then again, the US kill ratio of Allied forces and 'own goals' is pretty high, higher than the Iraqis ....

actually, I should clarify that I don't have evidence that the US is using mines right now... I doubt they will in this one. But they do produce them and stock them in their arsenal and refuse to say they won't use them...

america has often refused to give upfront assurance that it won't do certain things, even when they know full well that they won't. i think it falls under blunting your enemy's aggressiveness by giving him additional tactical issues to worry about. and those assurances seem to set a precedent that you may come to regret in future conflicts whose particulars aren't known or foreseen yet.

They laughed at Carter, and it was a lot more sour when we just left the special ops smoldering in the sand. Wanna talk about Clinton? A hummer was not a mode of transit during his administration. 'Black Hawk Down' is now a training video. What the world really laughs at are people who talk big, get manhandled, and go home crying.

If anything will be snickered-at this time it will be our 'Woody Allen'-esque introspection and self doubt. Give the West enough sad-eyed kids and you can even have them volunteering as human shields. These people are willing to shove guns in the hands of 15 year-olds and send them to waste the enemy's ammunition. They are willing to kill their neighbors for propaganda value.

What do those people see on CNN? Well-fed college students in Birkenstocks laying in the streets of New York City covered with fake blood, screaming to protect people who hate them. People like Saddam Hussein don't understand people like Paxx and DavidK, they don't see wisdom or pacifism. All they see is weakness. It is their fondest desire to make a bigger dog tuck his tail and bow his head. They look at Europe and America and see easily-victimized people who are ready run home if a few 'expendable' citizens get thrown in front of a tank. Yes, we look like fools...

but not dangerous fools...

Good response Baker.... and I'm glad to see you addressed something I actually said.

Ever notice the guys that seem to get the rotten end of all this stuff are the ordinary people? Whether it's your gung-ho boys with guns getting slaughtered or the sad-eyed kids in a demonstration getting gassed and clubbed or the civilians, living ordinary lives, that get bombed, straffed, napalmed and poisoned.

Did you notice that every one of Bush's administration evaded serving in combat? Bush himself was AWOL from his cheesy assignment at a Air National Guard post for 9 months. A duty he got through the political influence of his father. Seen any oil company executives even getting their feet dirty lately? How about the pharmaceutical company execs or even the wealthy tycoons in Iraq. Think any of them got blown up? Probably not. On CNN they made a big point of how the wealthy citizens of Baghdad were able to flee long before the fighting started.

We're all people and we all bleed. The hungry and impoverished seem to be the best fuel for this machine that thrives on conflict but even the fat young sons and daughters of the middle class make excellent cannon fodder. But you won't see the sons and daughters of the war makers, the industrial barons or the obscenely wealthy being subjected to such inhumane abuse. They have the privilige of being the ruling class. The ones who know how important it is to generate Saddams and Osamas to perpetuate the lie that there's not enough food or water for us all. That only in regional conflict can man attain his highest calling of liberating compassion. Only through the deaths of thousands do they maintain the lie that there is not enough bounty on this earth for its people. There is plenty for everyone, just not enough to keep the war machine fat because it feeds on human suffering and death. It's you, and me, and all our friends that are the real target of this conflict.

#1447 by Developer wombat_1 - 4/7/2003 9:18:19 PM
jam, what's this 'we gunna kick butt' rubbish?
'we' implies your participation ...?????

Wombat, I am an American citizen, patriotic to the core, I am part of the overall 'WE' of the American people...
When I say "We gonna kick some big booty" I mean 'WE' the American people as a country, the finest country on Earth!

Now that's where Aussies tend to differ....we don't expound the virtues of Oz over all other countries as 'the finest country on Earth'.....usually, when pushed, we'll just say we wouldn't want to live anywhere else....

I've been to a few countries....that was 30 years ago....and it was as an Architecture tour, so wasn't for very long.....therefore my actual KNOWLEDGE of life and living conditions, etc in other countries is second-hand, at best, so therefore coloured by external opinion/prejudice.

My guess is thet taking into account issues such as pitiful gun-control, privatizing of medical assistance/benefits, etc, I may just want to tend to put the USA down a notch.
Yes, Australia under Imperial rule kinda trashed the rights of the Aboriginals...so a mark down to us...but we were still under the wing of the UK, back then...
Then of course, there's the problem of the '500 Nations'....[or lack of]...but that's down to the Spanish and English and French, I guess.....and John Wayne, of course..

I'm sure there are possibly 'better' countries on this planet than any of these mentioned....but if it's all about penis-envy then the great old US of A has the biggest of almost everything.....except Ayres Rock, of course...

But does it ever need a bucket load of Viagra to make it move ....
Now I'll get the flick for sure ...

DavidK: I have a deep respect for you and Paxx, and I know I give you hell. Thing it, it isn't so much that I disagree with your beliefs, it is that I don't think they are functional.

There is a reason Plato reserved his Ideals, his perfect prototypes, as untouchable... somewhere other than here. Machiavelli is on the other end of the scale, accepting only failure as a guide for morality.

I see myself as Stoic, tending toward Marcus Auralius' description of such. Natural order *has* to be taken into account when one creates a standard operating procedure. Anything that seeks to ignore the way nature functions, is doomed to failure. War is a law; greed is a law, it has always been here, and it is self-defeating to write it out of your system. You shouldn't embrace it either, because you see what it does to those who do, but you cannot act as though it doesn't exist.

I like dogs. I know people who love them and get bitten a lot, and raise generally disagreeable dogs. If you treat a dog like a person, he will impose his pack mentality on you and sooner or later you'll come into conflict with him. If you embrace his mentality to a degree, and situate yourself as a friendly, dominant figure, you'll never have a more reliable friend. Soft-hearted Disney anthropomorphism has created a lot of nasty, biting dogs, imho.

It's not great for international relations, either. When dealing with other nations, you have to look at what they respect, and emulate it as much as your ethics will allow. If you embrace something that is disrespected and unfruitful in their culture, then you are gonna suffer there. We've lost standing with peace-loving nations, but I think the ones who thought us lazy, cowardly and weak are less secure in their derision. That is a balance, like everything.

If anything, the world had decided in the last 30 years that the US never finished a war, and its enemies could do what they like with only a slap on the hand in return. The average citizen in the Middle East didn't see us liberating Kuwait, they saw us start a war and go home before we finished it. Hopefully, those ideas are being questioned now. If others drop a gauntlet and force us to reiterate the point, then maybe it *will* be North Korea or Syria next, I dunno. I hope not, but if it is required for our well-being and continued prosperity, we embrace defeat by avoiding it.

That makes sense BB... could be the reason. I just hate the message it sends to other countries when there's a worldwide agreement on a treaty to ban something like land mines or biological weapons, and the US refuses to sign it.

Backing out of the nuclear treaties, proclaiming a right to "pre-emption", developing new nuclear weapons, bragging about our armed forces having switched to tactical nukes on many of their conventional delivery systems... it's all so much like giving the whole world the finger...

Very much so, Dave...and it's that same finger with the autonamous capacity to nuke whom-so-ever it pleases...

And it';s even more embarrassing when the president wears elevator shoes and refuses to talk at a European conference because they won't promise him canned applaus and a faked standing ovation... a dreary day in American diplomacy... we look like fools...