ToeJo: ack... Google shows that to be a real gun *and* chambered in a 5.45mm caliber, which is essentially the same caliber as the .223 they have been referencing. I would imagine that such ammunition would be rare in the US, but then I had never heard of it, either. Food for thought.

The purpose of guns is not to grow flowers or to blow bubbles. The only purpose of a gun is to kill.

Ok Jafo It's easy to see now that you are either ignorant because you don't know any better, or you are just plain stupid(knowing better and continuing in the matter which you act).
You have shown everyone on this thread that your attempt at oral deformation of my character(simple terms LYING) has made your lack of integrity(telling the truth) and professionalism obvious to all. I never stated that I am a meber of the NRA. I am not. You made that one up yourself. Your name calling people "thugs" and the like also shows you lack of maturity when speaking on a subject of seriousness. My speaking of bats, knives, and others was to show how left field and closed minded your views are and maybe this would cause you to dig deeper into the issues. Take notes from these other mature entries on this thread that are taking time to research and provide others with facts, not their "I am me and so I am always right" selfish views. Do you actually live in America or have you ever met a member of the NRA? After meeting just you, am I to judge everyone on the premise of your foolishness? NO. Its like I'm talking to a five year old. I used to be in Law Enforcement. I now protect freedom everyday because I am a member of the United States special operations command. My job requires that I carry a GUN. I am proud to say that I am good at my job because I can target 40 shots out of 40 bullets. Does that make me a thug? Does that make me a fanatic? Does that mean that I am to hold a certain point of view just because you think so?

bakerstreet the M-16 now has a heavy barrel version that is considerable more accurate than the regular version. Especially civilian models. Just thought you might like to know.

Religion

Listen, Rated. You're allowed to your opinion, Jafo's allowed to his, Bakerstreet is allowed his.
You're allowed to think that your a cool guy because you got a big gun. And we're allowed to think otherwise, k?

Guns also make nice paper weights.
Guns can also be collectors items.


The bottom line is this; guns are in-animate objects. They do no move, eat, think, breathe, spell... they just sit there. They can't even load themselves!! People load them, people pick them up, people shoot them. Sure guns are made for killing, but that doesn't mean that guns kill. I believe killing is a verb, an action. Guns have to be used by something or someone and that someone has to have the intent TO KILL. All people who buy guns do not have the intent to kill.


Gun control will stop a few from getting then gun to hurt others, it probably will not stop the DC shooter or other serial kilers who have the know how to do these crimes, but it will stop those who are not so devious or just "want to try something" people.

I do not want to stop someone's right to bear arms, I just do not want it to be "easy" for a person to get a gun with a sole intent to do illegal acts.

Cell phones are made for making phone calls. Doesn't it take a person to make a call? Does the person have to make a call? Just because a person has a cell phone means that he has made phone calls? If he had, are those phone calls legal and to people he knows?

Alls I am saying is that guns (much like money) is not the "evil". People make those guns go off. Gun laws allow it to be easy to get a gun with out easy tracking. Better gun laws would help, but would not eliminate the problem. Why, because people are the ones who are braking the law and buying or selling the guns


The noun here is people. What ever is done it has to be more pschycological than anything else. Gun control is not about controlling the guns, it is about controlling the people who want them.

My sentiments exactly I defend everyones right to freedom of expression, freedom to lobby for gun control, freedom to keep and bear arms. I am curious to know why you feel that I think I'm a cool guy now. I was mearly stating my job requirements. Why you typed relgion...who knows. I just detest liars and being lied to or about.

joe: I'm sorry I don't buy that. Guns are made to kill, it's their only purpose. If I buy a cell phone, it's because I intend to use it. Why would somebody buy a gun if it wasn't for the intent of killing somebody? To denfend himself? sure. But defend himself how? By killing somebody else. Still killing.

And BTW, I'm not talking about collector item 18th century guns here. Yes, those are collector items. An AK-87 or whatever is not a collector item (yes, I know, I know nothing about guns, and I'm proud of it).

Drugs also are inanimate, joe. Yet, drug is evil. Guns are evil. In my book, they are of the same category of things. Illegal in most countries and immoral.

Simply imagine a world with NO guns and you'll have a world with no shootings, then ask yourself what is the LEGITIMATE motive for owning them.

I can imagine being rich................but it won't change the facts.
Guns DO exist, and I will fight for my right, as provided by the Founding Father (not God), to own them. Yes, I'm talking USA here......do want you wish is other countries, don't matter to me.
I'm not afraid of all the guns in my neighbors homes. The only gun I've ever had pointed at me, was by an off duty, paranoid cop. I had long hair, and was with a black guy, so we were suspicious, don't you know.

Karmagirl is trying to get you to smell the coffee.........this is a very different country, with very different problems.


Excluding Boing 737's, what are the 'weapons of choice' of the mass murderer?
According to the pro-NRA, that would be knives and bats.....yeah, right...

Seems to me that most serial killers don't use guns.

I'm not NRA..........hell, I don't even own a gun, but I'm glad that I can own one, if I so choose.

One final comment and then I'm outa here.
ANY variation of an "Armalite", be it an AR15, M16, CAR15 of whatever is inherently flawed when it comes to accuracy.
The design is not meant for long range work, and the receiver is prone to flexing.
It is a hopeless in field weapon unless it is spotless and well maintained, period.
Way back when it first appeared the USMC resisted the push to have their trusty M14s replaced with plastic toys, even our crappy SLRs were better suited to conditions in the bush, and a Kalashnikov would keep working under the worst conditions.
Bakerstreet, for one who appears to be informed in the area of small arms your apparant lack of knowlege re the Kalasknikov is strange.
Rated PG, US 'Special Operations'?????
And the only effect of a bull barrel on an M16 would be to make it bend in the middle of the receiver.
No disrespect to the grunt on the ground but whenever I hear the term 'Special Forces' and the US I think of that great attempt at invading Iran to recover those people held in the US Embassy at Teheran during the early 70s.
40/40 is nice shooting, did the barn door recover?
All this is interesting but the thread seems to have fallen into a "mine's bigger than your's" routine.
And FYI PG, my only qualifications in this area are my rank,unit and service record.

My grandfather bought a gun and never intends to use it. it just sits there.

Others buy guys for different reasons. Mostly to shoot at things

What evry the reason the intent is not justifide because somebody bought a gun is to kill. If someone is getting a gun to protect his or her house then good luck cause most likely it will only get into the wrong hands or you end up shooting someone you love.

If there where no guns, then there would be knives. Swords are made to kill too, don't see a disscussion about that one.

At any rate, it still comes down to somebody wanting to do it. And that somebody is human. The gun is just a extention of the wrist. The 2 planes that crahsed into the towers where taken over by knives and forks. A human being did that, not a knife or a fork. A human being is the person firing the trigger and aiming.

If it was not a gun it would be something else. If all guns where eliminated from the earth, then it would be phasers, slingshots, and modified pee shooters. Humans will make it and use it to kill, but the object will just sit there.

Drugs will also do the same. And evil by the way, is one of those forces that someone had to be apart of. Not something, someone. Something is used, but the someone is using it. If that something did not exist, then it would be something else.

There will always be a need for laws to maintain some kind of path for the objects used and how they are made and can be traced or identified. The control part is to stop the human beings from misusing those objects.


Was the Apple of Adam and Eve evil? Was it not the Apple of Knowledge? Yet it is funny how the Apple is blaimed for the outsing of the couple from Eden instead of the people who should have known better to eat it.

wombat--public websites http://www.socom.mil/ and http://www.afsoc.af.mil/

wombat: heck no, I wouldn't call myself knowledgeable beyond the weapons I have owned personally. I have fired both the SKS and the AK, but I have never owned one, and never anything about alternative calibers to the 7.62.

As far as the AR-15 I owned, it was a mid 80's model, and I had no problems with its function or accuracy in the ~three years I had it. Thousands of men shooting with them continually would no doubt be more apt to find flaws.

I live in 'town' now, and the only gun ranges of any value around here are invitation only, so I only have two or three weapons and they are family pieces, ~1900-1920. I didn't see the point in retaining the investment in modern weapons if I wasn't going to shoot them. In other words if 'mine are bigger than yours', yours would have to really suck .

P.S. you guys, Rated, etc., go easy on Jafo, he's done nothing but state an opinion. This particular opinion is not the usual Jafo, and if he feels strongly enough to state it as he has, he probably has good reason.

Jafo, I *really* felt offended by your "NRA Thug" comment. I think you have a really warped view of the people who actually belong to the NRA. Most of the people who are part of it are simply rifle enthusiasts. They hunt, or they shoot at ranges. They collect guns. It is their hobby. They are the same type of people that will be forming a group when they try to make gasoline engines illegal in the future (that is assuming they ever get the battery powered cars working).

There *are* valid reasons for guns. The last place that I lived had a pack of half wolf/half dog animals running around. If you don't know, that is a *really* bad thing. You have up to two hundred pound animals running around that aren't scared of anything. I'm quite sure that my neighbor (who had three small kids that were playing outside) was happy when animal control got to the scene and shot the animals before they got to the kids.

Growing up, there was 20+ guns in my house. Half were special made left handers due to my dad being left handed. Not a one was ever loaded. Not a one had ever been pointed at anyone. My Dad even reloads ammunition (which is actually a pretty neat process). It's his hobby. He would never hurt a soul. He's far from being a "thug." And, I never even tried to make a bomb out of the gun powder that was always around (what was I thinking?)

Koasati- "Karmagirl is trying to get you to smell the coffee...." (Was that pun intended due to my old 'JavaBrain' nickname? ) It is the truth, though. Everyone has their opinions. If you are against guns, don't live in the US and don't buy one yourself. Anyone who knows me knows that this is one issue that I stand my ground on. I have lived with guns and around neighbors who have guns my entire life. I have lived around farmers who have saved there animals by shooting wild animals, I have lived around hunters that keep our Deer population under control (which is more humane and safe than them either starving to death or being hit by cars), and I am not a "thug", I am not evil in any way (well, maybe just a little....but not 'violent' evil).

The "gun" laws do not need to be changed. If you want to change something, change the way a person is treated if they kill somebody with a gun. Change the murder laws. It's not a "gun" problem, it's a "people" problem.

I am *so* convinced that I am much more likely to meet my maker on my commute to work than by the hand of a gun. Actually, I'm more likely to fall down the stairs and break my neck than to be shot.

Where is Ted Nuggent when you need him? http://www.tnugent.com/

OK, I admit I have a hard time understanding the "casual" value of a gun that a lot of Americans have, I can sort of understand one could feel that way if he was raised not seeing a difference between a gun and a loaf of bread.
But let me propose a scenario. Not to make you change your mind about weapons, but maybe to make you understand what is a gun for us, outside of the US.
Imagine a country when all drugs were legal. Legal to sell, legal to buy, legal to use. Imagine citizens of that country posted in this message board. Saying that drugs are OK, they are just objects and that there is nothing wrong with drugs, as long as you don't abuse of them. Imagine those persons start discussing between themselves on this board about different drugs, their properties. Imagine how uneasy most people would feel here about those discussions. Imagine how uneasy YOU would feel. Wouldn't it shock you somewhat to see how people talk about drugs so casually, as a matter of fact, as if drugs were no different than chocolate?
Well, that's pretty much how most people feel about guns, outside of the US. Guns are illegal, guns are immoral. We are raised seeing guns as a dangerous thing to stay away from. Guns and a needle of morphine, similar "evil" objects in the minds of most non-US people.
That where Jafo comes from, that's where I come from. Before you condemn him or his tone, think about the names you would call an advocate of "all drugs should be legal". Cause that's the same thing to us.

Over 48 hours and no crazed sniper shootings. I hope we can go all day without!

My hope is that it is over for good. No more sniper shootings. I feel that this may become a copycat scenario like the school shootings.

Paxx, I think what we need to learn is tolerance. Just because somebody has a different view, or their country has different laws, doesn't give you the right to call them names, or take such a tone with them.

It's not like guns in America is a new thing. I doubt that anyone on this board didn't know that we have a lot of guns in the US.

I was not raised going to church. I have no formal religion. But you will *never* hear me bashing somebody else because of their religious beliefs. I will never call them names. I may point out my views and why I have those views. I will even tell you that some of my views will never be changed, but I will never call you a name because of your views.

I love Jafo, he's a great guy. He does wonderful things for the community and for WinCustomize in general. And, as for you, Paxx, though I disagree with a lot of your views, that doesn't make me dislike you, or think of you as "bad" because of them. i respect your views, I respect you. But, I have different views, and I get offended just like anyone else would if somebody cruelly bashes on something that I believe in.

Guns will not go away in the US. It's part of the constitution: The second Amendment states: "A well-regulated Militia being necessary to the security of a free State,
the right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed."

It's that little bit at the end that the NRA fights for and why they say that making laws restricting guns is unconstitutional:
"right of the people to keep and bear Arms shall not be infringed." Laws against guns in any way are obviously seen as an infringement.

ToeJo, let's just hope that the silence remains, and that the sniper isn't en route to another city.

Yes, Karma, I understand. Except I've seen before people called names for talking about drugs, warez or whatever. Guns for us is just as criminal. Ig that crime is legal in your country doesn't make less a crime for us, that's all I'm saying.
Sure, name calling isn't nice and we should try to stay away from it, but that's true for any circumstances. Whether the person is advocating drugs, warez or guns.

I didn't realize no other country authorized civillians to own guns. It sounds a bit illogical to me, but i'm an American, and our country is based on fighting for our rights. I'd figure the French and others would choose to have gun ownership for civillians as common sense (can we say French Revolution?), but apparently I have the wrong picture...

And the US M-16A2 Service Rifle has proven accurate enough for the last few decades in the Marine Corps. It is highly accurate up to 500 meters without use of a scope, durable, reliable, easy to use and clean, has very little recoil, and with a $0.25 pair of spongy generic ear plugs used when firing, the sound is extremely minor.

The Corps uses the 5.56 NATO Ball round and trains for a single shot efficiency for all personnel, not just Recon Units.

Wombat, your data sounds a bit dated...pre- and during-Vietnam era...maybe to include just past it, as well?

paxx: pffft, quit acting like you live in some hippy utopia, check your laws. I'm not commenting on gun control, either, just your characterization of views outside the US. Guns aren't banned anywhere that I am aware of, only regulated in varying degrees. If you were taught that guns are evil, that was a private matter between your parents and you, not a social theme in your country. If you can point out anywhere where in the world where no private citizen can own a firearm of any kind, I would be highly, highly interested. That makes morality of their existance fairly clear, especially since you are continually protected by them.

That would allow millions of Americans, Canadians, Europeans, etc., etc, to be something other than thugs or immoral. I respect your choice for not owning one, though., we'd just appreciate the same respect.

No one is gonna change their mind, why bother?

I thought in China, they (civillians) couldn't own guns...?

I'm not trying to change anybody's mind, bakerstreet. As I said in my post. I'm trying to make you understand what the topic means to us. Guns are banned for civilians except in very limited cases where you can get a special permission; if you regularely carry large amounts of money for example. Even security guards aren't armed, unless they guard money. I'm talking hand guns here. Riffles is a little different, and only some specific kinds of riffles are allowed, for hunting purposes only. Automatic weapons are absolutely banned in all circumstances. They are even talking about banning semi-automatic rifles.
It's not the way *I* was raised. Most people have never even seen a gun in they whole life, unless on the belt of a policeman. I can count on one hand the times I held a riffle in my hands. And it was a pissy .22 to shoot cans in the field. A handgun, I've seen once with my own eyes (out of the gun holder thingy), and I didn't touch it.
I'm not an exception. Most people are like me. Especially city people (90% of Canada is urban). In the country, hunting is more common, so more people have one or two riffles. Usually a .22 or a .333.
Don't assume everywhere is like in the US. It's not the case. Morals is nothing but a society standard. What is immoral in one place can be different somewhere else.