[Suggestion] Get rid of the "pack attack"

from Elemental Forums

The pack attack.. where every unit in hiting range, hits.. Its completely unbalanced. Destroys any tactical game-play, and ultimately makes armor and heroes useless. Get my hero surrounded by 3-4 enemy units. Normally if I have the right spells, or HP pots, I can tank them.. not anymore.

Thats not just 3-4 times I'm getting hit, thats 16 times or more I'm getting hit. Each doing all 4 of their damage.. thats insane amounts of damage being thrown around. I dont have time to heal or use an HP pot as a saving grace, or an attempt to retreat, they 1 shot my hero with sometimes up to a whomping 80 damage on a lvl 5 hero.

To keep your hero safe you have to bring your glass cannon fodder soldiers to the front, and coddle your hero like he's a newborn all game, or you'll run the chance of him getting 1-2 shot and having permanent stat reductions.

With the current "pack attack" system, there is no tactical sense, no chance or time to do any strategic thinking, or using spells at just the right time. Its "throw everything you got in 1 push". No thinking required. Do you have more units? you won!

It should not be "He who has more soldiers wins" It should be "He who has the most tactical sense wins". Whats the use of having tactical spells when the only real time you get to use them usually is the first few turns before everything on the map is getting 1 shot?

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That being said, it also destroys any fun in the matches, as there is only 2 ways to fight.

Either A) Create nothing but horsemen with the +3 movement +3 attack skill and rush everything on the first turn and completely decimate the enemy army. (This is basically an auto win on everything, no matter what).

Or B ) Move your units up 1 by 1 right next to each other.. Which is boring. Its basically 1 wall of soldiers, and even then the battles always focus from middle outward to get the most hits in possible.

And again its ALWAYS, who ever has the most soldiers.. wins.. Since even having 1 extra squad, can ultimately net you hundreds of extra damage output. Which is just over-kill.

A -good- battle mechanic for a game will allow the said person to have a chance at coming back if he plays his cards right, this cannot happen with the current swarming mechanic, at all, even if its nerfed down, unless its nerfed down to the point where its pretty much pointless. In which case, why even have it? A -good- Battle mechanic will allow a person losing a chance to come back, and not simply due to 1 magical lucky crit, but playing his cards right and working the battlefield. Again, cannot happen if your losing in its current state.

9/10 of the battles currently were won or lost before the battle even started. This is not a good battle system for a game.

 

 Edit: Ok so I had the "Swarm" mechanic wrong of how it works, however, it DOES essentially work exactly how I described it above, minus every one getting its attack dmg in. Otherwise, nothing in my post changes.

 Edit 2: I do want to say, I agree that the swarm attack mechanic -can- work. But its certainly not adding anything strategic or fun to the battles in its current state for most people. Its all about glass cannons, and having more squads.. thats it.. Thats not strategy. Thats a hallway attack with no room for strategy.

 

Edit 3: This is something someone said below, and my response is exactly what I'm talking about, of how this sort of mechanic strips your ability to win when you otherwise could.

 

Quoting petrasvu, reply 16

I think its fine. If your hero gets surounded with 5 stacks of units (while he is lvl 5 besides ???) then:

1. You atacking not your match...

2. You are not doing strategy at battle: block some enemies with other units you have, use bashes to spred them a bit or impale to reduce numbers in stacks. Its realy easy to controll battle and swarm is fine. By the way defender hero realy can hold 3 stacks of skeletons with guard skill and healing spell (or pots).

 
My Response:

Your assuming I'm not already doing this. Which I am.

 
5 stacks of units my Hero can 1 hit. Normally, each one of them wouldn't be able to kill me. They are at half strength. My Hero has high initiation, which means for every 1 move of them, I can attack next.

So what happens?

Swarm attack happens, and they 1 shot my hero.

What would have happened if there wasn't swarm attack?

Squad 1 Attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, and kills them

Squad 2 attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, kills them,

Rinse and repeat, while throwing in a heal once or twice.

 

See the issue here?


37,616 views 32 replies
Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

They don't all attack at once, it just looks like it.  However, the swarm bonus means that accuracy and attack is increased (attack at least is increased for each figure in stack), but units like wolves and Urxen get 3x swarm bonus.  I think it is meant to be 2x.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

You're not understanding the swarm mechanic:

For each ally adjacent to the unit the current unit is attacking, the attacker gets +5 accuracy and +1 attack.

Ashes of the Singularity II
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top


However, I do agree that the swarm mechnanic does need to be a little more complex, including a counter-swarm penalty to the attributed bonus.

Thus, if you have 4 troops providing swarm and the opponent has 3 providing swarm, you would only net 1 to swarm.

This would REALLY push you to break enemy lines to achieve that swarm attack mechanic.

 

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting GFireflyE, reply 3


However, I do agree that the swarm mechnanic does need to be a little more complex, including a counter-swarm penalty to the attributed bonus.

Thus, if you have 4 troops providing swarm and the opponent has 3 providing swarm, you would only net 1 to swarm.

This would REALLY push you to break enemy lines to achieve that swarm attack mechanic.

 
End of GFireflyE's quote

I don't see how this could possibly work...do you know how swarm works?

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

He is right in this:

A) Create nothing but horsemen with the +3 movement +3 attack skill and rush everything on the first turn and completely decimate the enemy army. (This is basically an auto win on everything, no matter what).

 

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting salikgyula, reply 5

He is right in this:

A) Create nothing but horsemen with the +3 movement +3 attack skill and rush everything on the first turn and completely decimate the enemy army. (This is basically an auto win on everything, no matter what).

 
End of salikgyula's quote

 

And arm them with Lightning Hammers for the gift that keeps on giving.

Reply #7 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 2
You're not understanding the swarm mechanic:

For each ally adjacent to the unit the current unit is attacking, the attacker gets +5 accuracy and +1 attack.
End of mqpiffle's quote

I have to agree with the OP on this.  You may have stated the mechanic correctly, but all that really matters is how that translates to game play.

You can still win mismatches without using swarm, but if the sides are evenly matched it's like fighting a battle from the Civil War.  Whichever side tries to charge a line usually losses.  If your army has a good mix of spell caster, archers, and melee units you can probably sit back & make the AI come to you.  In the early game this isn't always possible, and you end up not being able to fight battles with AI groups which have more units without taking heavy losses.

Swarm has added a tactical element to battles, just not sure I like it.  Maybe if the grid was bigger flanking could become a more useful option? 

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Ok, maybe my understanding of the swarm is wrong, but the mechanics are essentially the same. I was getting hit with 80 damage on my lvl 5 Hero from skeletons which normally only did 5-10 damage, suddenly their hitting me for 80?

Either way, I dont agree this added tactics.. A way to overcome an issue is not necessarily a "Tactic". Its just a way to overcome a terrible game mechanic, nothing more.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

are you sure it was a plain hit? sounds more like a crushing blow (blunt weapon special attack - deals double damage and dazes the attacker for 1 turn [i.e. attacker loses the next turn)

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Azunai_, reply 9

are you sure it was a plain hit? sounds more like a crushing blow (blunt weapon special attack - deals double damage and dazes the attacker for 1 turn [i.e. attacker loses the next turn)
End of Azunai_'s quote

It was definetly a normal hit, wasn't a weapon with a crushing blow, and it was Skeletons, not a hero.

It could have been a critical hit, but that's all the more reason to get rid of this swarm mechanic. If 1 lucky crit is going to 1 shot your hero...... whats the point?

 

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

I like the mechanic - can make cheap fodder en masse powerful.   Or not, they still have to have some punch.   Plus, think about it - how tough do you have to be to be able to stand up to 5 groups of enemies attacking/distracting you.  pretty baddass.   If you aren't that badass (i.e. lvl 5 hero), don't get into a fight where you can be surrounded.    Strategically avoid the bad tactical situation. 

Is the mechanic +5 accuracy and +1 attack per Unit or per figure in that Unit? 

i.e. would 3 groups of 5 provide +10 accuracy and +2 attack to the attacking unit or +50 accuracy and +10 attack?

I do like the idea of anti-swarm skills, gun-kata style! 

 

Also, when thinking about swarm vs no swarm - possibly think romans vs gauls.    Individual fighters frequently fared worse against the disciplined line.   Would be great to have swarm and counterattack swarm by default to REWARD having a solid line or at least nearby buddies.

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

I think they need mechanics like swarm however I would prefer it to be a more complex mechanic where flanking was more advantageous than swarming from one side only. In any case even the basic version they currently have adds a bit more strategy.

A big problem I think is that heroes are currently underpowered. Swarm just accentuates that basic problem.

The other big problem is as you have said, the game is all about glass cannons currently.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

I'll agree, swarm CAN work.. but its certainly anywhere from working in a balanced way currently. Its whoever has the highest attack dmg wins. period.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

In general, I like the swarm mechanic, but it does mean that many battles get decided by moving first to get a bunch of "cheap" swarm attacks.

One thought is that swarm can work like blocking does in Blood Bowl -- You get a bonus for each ally adjacent to your target, but only if your ally is not adjacent to different enemy. The idea being, you can't swarm a single target if you are in danger of being attacked yourself. This would negate some of the first turn swarm spam and that formations would be key.

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting ChrisMagoun, reply 14

In general, I like the swarm mechanic, but it does mean that many battles get decided by moving first to get a bunch of "cheap" swarm attacks.

One thought is that swarm can work like blocking does in Blood Bowl -- You get a bonus for each ally adjacent to your target, but only if your ally is not adjacent to different enemy. The idea being, you can't swarm a single target if you are in danger of being attacked yourself. This would negate some of the first turn swarm spam and that formations would be key.
End of ChrisMagoun's quote

I personally still dont like that. Its basically just the same thing, except slower to get going. It would turn battles into a snowball.

As soon as 1 side starts to win, It quickly becomes impossible to save yourself from a loss due to the swarm attacks that start.

Or god forbid 1 lucky crit that wipes your unit out, now your screwed because the next swarm attack will kill your next unit automatically, and snowballs again.

Still a terrible mechanic imo.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

I think its fine. If your hero gets surounded with 5 stacks of units (while he is lvl 5 besides ???) then:

1. You atacking not your match...

2. You are not doing strategy at battle: block some enemies with other units you have, use bashes to spred them a bit or impale to reduce numbers in stacks. Its realy easy to controll battle and swarm is fine. By the way defender hero realy can hold 3 stacks of skeletons with guard skill and healing spell (or pots).

Reply #17 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting petrasvu, reply 16

I think its fine. If your hero gets surounded with 5 stacks of units (while he is lvl 5 besides ???) then:

1. You atacking not your match...

2. You are not doing strategy at battle: block some enemies with other units you have, use bashes to spred them a bit or impale to reduce numbers in stacks. Its realy easy to controll battle and swarm is fine. By the way defender hero realy can hold 3 stacks of skeletons with guard skill and healing spell (or pots).
End of petrasvu's quote

 

Your assuming I'm not already doing this. Which I am.

 

5 stacks of units my Hero can 1 hit. Normally, each one of them wouldn't be able to kill me. They are at half strength. My Hero has high initiation, which means for every 1 move of them, I can attack next.

So what happens?

Swarm attack happens, and they 1 shot my hero.

What would have happened if there wasn't swarm attack?

Squad 1 Attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, and kills them

Squad 2 attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, kills them,

Rinse and repeat, while throwing in a heal once or twice.

 

See the issue here?

 

Reply #18 from Elemental Forums Top

Duplicate....

Reply #19 from Elemental Forums Top

Duplicated by accident


Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

One of the primary goals of the swarm system is to prevent heroes from getting all-powerful.  Now you need to provide your own support troops for swarm bonuses of your own and preventing the enemy from swarming you too much.  You should look at the problem from the other side, why do you want your hero to be able to single-handedly kill large groups of enemies without support or why are you so against the idea that you might have to sacrifice some troops/work differently for a victory?

 

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jutetrea, reply 11

 
Is the mechanic +5 accuracy and +1 attack per Unit or per figure in that Unit? 

i.e. would 3 groups of 5 provide +10 accuracy and +2 attack to the attacking unit or +50 accuracy and +10 attack?

End of jutetrea's quote

I'd also like to know the exact mechanic. My experience suggests that swarming is very effective (particularly with wolves etc) and so it's more than a mere +1 to attack for the stack. The difference between a non-swarm attack might say do 5 to 10 damage whereas a swarm attack can be 40 or more.

It seems it is at least +1 to attack for each figure in the attacking stack, and it may even be +1 per figure in the swarming stack to each figure in the attacking stack. The latter could account for some of the very high swarm damage I have been seeing.

I have been playing as a Beastmaster, and a pack of wolves with a great wolf is an almost unstoppable army...

 

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

There was a bug in the code that was causing the boni to increase exponentially per swarming unit instead of additively.

It has been fixed for .80.

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Nessin, reply 20

One of the primary goals of the swarm system is to prevent heroes from getting all-powerful.  Now you need to provide your own support troops for swarm bonuses of your own and preventing the enemy from swarming you too much.  You should look at the problem from the other side, why do you want your hero to be able to single-handedly kill large groups of enemies without support or why are you so against the idea that you might have to sacrifice some troops/work differently for a victory?

 
End of Nessin's quote

 

I'm not against this at all. I believe the Heroes should be like commanders. more or less, special abilities through their traits of Mage, Assassin, etc. Powerfull yes, but not immortal. Dangerous, but killable.

This is not how it is.

the Swarm attack simply causes them to be more useless fodder.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting mqpiffle, reply 22

There was a bug in the code that was causing the boni (sic) to increase exponentially per swarming unit instead of additively.

It has been fixed for .80.
End of mqpiffle's quote

Wondered why I hadn't seen any of these swarming problems.  As of .8, I think swarming is a nice little bonus.  It makes large groups of weaker enemies a bit more challenging, while not completely overpowering things you would otherwise not be able to kill.  Kind of a shame, really, because I could really use some help against a pair of rampaging Obsidian Golems from Imperium...

Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top

I just started playing the beta a bit, and I too noticed the "swarm" mechanic seems to allow the bigger team in a fight to snowball a win really quickly if they have the numbers or the initiative.  The mechanic seems too powerful, but I completely admit I have to play a bit more to get a feel for it.

My initial thoughts are that the AI isn't going to use it as effectively as the player allowing it to be an easily abused mechanic.  Maybe just have a simple "flanking" bonus instead so when a unit is attacked while it has another enemy behind it there is a small attack bonus, but not one that increases per unit.  The incremental bonus seems to be too powerful....the superior numerical force already has that advantage, why add insult to injury?  Swarm might be a nice mechanic for very specific units, like swarms of little monsters that "zerg" their opponent, but not for everything in the game.  The graphic of all the surrounding units attacking is misleading as well.