GoddessAthena GoddessAthena

[Suggestion] Get rid of the "pack attack"

[Suggestion] Get rid of the "pack attack"

The pack attack.. where every unit in hiting range, hits.. Its completely unbalanced. Destroys any tactical game-play, and ultimately makes armor and heroes useless. Get my hero surrounded by 3-4 enemy units. Normally if I have the right spells, or HP pots, I can tank them.. not anymore.

Thats not just 3-4 times I'm getting hit, thats 16 times or more I'm getting hit. Each doing all 4 of their damage.. thats insane amounts of damage being thrown around. I dont have time to heal or use an HP pot as a saving grace, or an attempt to retreat, they 1 shot my hero with sometimes up to a whomping 80 damage on a lvl 5 hero.

To keep your hero safe you have to bring your glass cannon fodder soldiers to the front, and coddle your hero like he's a newborn all game, or you'll run the chance of him getting 1-2 shot and having permanent stat reductions.

With the current "pack attack" system, there is no tactical sense, no chance or time to do any strategic thinking, or using spells at just the right time. Its "throw everything you got in 1 push". No thinking required. Do you have more units? you won!

It should not be "He who has more soldiers wins" It should be "He who has the most tactical sense wins". Whats the use of having tactical spells when the only real time you get to use them usually is the first few turns before everything on the map is getting 1 shot?

 --------------

That being said, it also destroys any fun in the matches, as there is only 2 ways to fight.

Either A) Create nothing but horsemen with the +3 movement +3 attack skill and rush everything on the first turn and completely decimate the enemy army. (This is basically an auto win on everything, no matter what).

Or B ) Move your units up 1 by 1 right next to each other.. Which is boring. Its basically 1 wall of soldiers, and even then the battles always focus from middle outward to get the most hits in possible.

And again its ALWAYS, who ever has the most soldiers.. wins.. Since even having 1 extra squad, can ultimately net you hundreds of extra damage output. Which is just over-kill.

A -good- battle mechanic for a game will allow the said person to have a chance at coming back if he plays his cards right, this cannot happen with the current swarming mechanic, at all, even if its nerfed down, unless its nerfed down to the point where its pretty much pointless. In which case, why even have it? A -good- Battle mechanic will allow a person losing a chance to come back, and not simply due to 1 magical lucky crit, but playing his cards right and working the battlefield. Again, cannot happen if your losing in its current state.

9/10 of the battles currently were won or lost before the battle even started. This is not a good battle system for a game.

 

 Edit: Ok so I had the "Swarm" mechanic wrong of how it works, however, it DOES essentially work exactly how I described it above, minus every one getting its attack dmg in. Otherwise, nothing in my post changes.

 Edit 2: I do want to say, I agree that the swarm attack mechanic -can- work. But its certainly not adding anything strategic or fun to the battles in its current state for most people. Its all about glass cannons, and having more squads.. thats it.. Thats not strategy. Thats a hallway attack with no room for strategy.

 

Edit 3: This is something someone said below, and my response is exactly what I'm talking about, of how this sort of mechanic strips your ability to win when you otherwise could.

 

Quoting petrasvu, reply 16

I think its fine. If your hero gets surounded with 5 stacks of units (while he is lvl 5 besides ???) then:

1. You atacking not your match...

2. You are not doing strategy at battle: block some enemies with other units you have, use bashes to spred them a bit or impale to reduce numbers in stacks. Its realy easy to controll battle and swarm is fine. By the way defender hero realy can hold 3 stacks of skeletons with guard skill and healing spell (or pots).

 
My Response:

Your assuming I'm not already doing this. Which I am.

 
5 stacks of units my Hero can 1 hit. Normally, each one of them wouldn't be able to kill me. They are at half strength. My Hero has high initiation, which means for every 1 move of them, I can attack next.

So what happens?

Swarm attack happens, and they 1 shot my hero.

What would have happened if there wasn't swarm attack?

Squad 1 Attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, and kills them

Squad 2 attacks, my hero takes damage.

My hero moves, kills them,

Rinse and repeat, while throwing in a heal once or twice.

 

See the issue here?


37,620 views 32 replies
Reply #26 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 25

I just started playing the beta a bit, and I too noticed the "swarm" mechanic seems to allow the bigger team in a fight to snowball a win really quickly if they have the numbers or the initiative.  The mechanic seems too powerful, but I completely admit I have to play a bit more to get a feel for it.

My initial thoughts are that the AI isn't going to use it as effectively as the player allowing it to be an easily abused mechanic.  Maybe just have a simple "flanking" bonus instead so when a unit is attacked while it has another enemy behind it there is a small attack bonus, but not one that increases per unit.  The incremental bonus seems to be too powerful....the superior numerical force already has that advantage, why add insult to injury?  Swarm might be a nice mechanic for very specific units, like swarms of little monsters that "zerg" their opponent, but not for everything in the game.  The graphic of all the surrounding units attacking is misleading as well.
End of Cykur's quote

 

^ This.

Its simply over powered. While I admitted already, it can work. Its still leading to destroying a lot of strategy in the battles which could be there, but simply are not due to a dumbed down mechanic such as swarming.

A -good- battle mechanic for a game will allow the said person to have a chance at coming back if he plays his cards right, this cannot happen with the current swarming mechanic, at all, even if its nerfed down, unless its nerfed down to the point where its pretty much pointless. In which case, why even have it? A -good- Battle mechanic will allow a person losing a chance to come back, and not simply due to 1 magical lucky crit, but playing his cards right and working the battlefield. Again, cannot happen if your losing in its current state.

9/10 of the battles currently were won or lost before the battle even started. This is not a good battle system for a game.

A -great- battle mechanic and system for a game will allow fights to go back and forth, one minute your winning, the next your not, now you are again. However, I dont think FE will ever be able to have this capability to its fullest extent, for a great battle system.

Point still stands, It simply is not a good battle system.

 

 

Reply #27 Top

i played with 0.80 a bit and the fix (see 0.80 changelog - mqpiffle already mentioned it [reply #22] ) seems to work just fine. it's a nice little bonus now, probably pretty strong on creatures with improved swarming (wolf packs, urxen racial, warrior trait - haven't really tried any of them yet) - but other than that, it's really not a big deal any more. it rewards good tactical positioning and punishes bad habits. 

Reply #28 Top

Quoting Azunai_, reply 27

i played with 0.80 a bit and the fix (see 0.80 changelog - mqpiffle already mentioned it [reply #22] ) seems to work just fine. it's a nice little bonus now, probably pretty strong on creatures with improved swarming (wolf packs, urxen racial, warrior trait - haven't really tried any of them yet) - but other than that, it's really not a big deal any more. it rewards good tactical positioning and punishes bad habits. 
End of Azunai_'s quote

 

I have to disagree. Unless you play only 1 specific way (which was the problem with the last battle mechanic), as soon as you start to lose its pretty much over.

Reply #29 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 25
I just started playing the beta a bit, and I too noticed the "swarm" mechanic seems to allow the bigger team in a fight to snowball a win really quickly if they have the numbers or the initiative... 

End of Cykur's quote

With bigger and more initiative team you simply cant looze with or withouth swarm mechanics (assuming you are doing rational choices after all). So removing it in this particular exapmple wont change outcome. That leads to: "i dont understand your point"

While i am up for it. It forces you realy brutaly to use head: block your enemies with your troops, use skills to separate them from being in groups. Your strategy now must include preserving them from getting swarm bonuss on you, while trying to get it of by yurself.

However i do agree that AI should be tuned a bit in order to chalenge you with that. Monsters on other way still perfectly hadles it. So you have to think before throwing your mele into close combat.

Heroes should get some reduction from it becose of being 1 unit in comparison with squads HP.

Reply #30 Top

Quoting petrasvu, reply 29


Quoting Cykur, reply 25I just started playing the beta a bit, and I too noticed the "swarm" mechanic seems to allow the bigger team in a fight to snowball a win really quickly if they have the numbers or the initiative... 




With bigger and more initiative team you simply cant looze with or withouth swarm mechanics (assuming you are doing rational choices after all). So removing it in this particular exapmple wont change outcome. That leads to: "i dont understand your point"

While i am up for it. It forces you realy brutaly to use head: block your enemies with your troops, use skills to separate them from being in groups. Your strategy now must include preserving them from getting swarm bonuss on you, while trying to get it of by yurself.

However i do agree that AI should be tuned a bit in order to chalenge you with that. Monsters on other way still perfectly hadles it. So you have to think before throwing your mele into close combat.

Heroes should get some reduction from it becose of being 1 unit in comparison with squads HP.
End of petrasvu's quote

 

This is my point....if you had a high initiative larger group, you were probably going to win anyhow unless the enemy had really strong units.  You didn't need swarm mechanic, because you already had numbers + initiative.  With swarm, you completely wreck the opposing force with very little loss.  This is why I don't see swarm being necessary.

Reply #31 Top

Quoting Cykur, reply 30




This is my point....if you had a high initiative larger group, you were probably going to win anyhow unless the enemy had really strong units.  You didn't need swarm mechanic, because you already had numbers + initiative.  With swarm, you completely wreck the opposing force with very little loss.  This is why I don't see swarm being necessary.
End of Cykur's quote

Well they fixed swarm a bit. They made more hp boosts on traits, reduced weapon damage, nerfed overpowered traits. You wont be having that much of advantage you had before now. If they will tune AI for managing better units with wargs and initiative traits, you hardly will have any advantage.

Reply #32 Top

I had not experienced the issue with swarm, but I started up again playing at .8 and it appears there was a bug prior to that.

I truly like the concept of swarm and as opposed to what the OP suggests it does add more tactical, and strategic flair as well since you have to pay closer attention to what groups you choose attack and what mix of units and talents you bring to the party.

With the bug fix, is the issue sorted or are folks still not liking it?