deviantART removed from community sidebar links?

Umm, gremlins? (I have no idea)

The community links change (are updated) on the first of the month. That list changed on November 1st. The list is based on the number of referrals that a site generates. DA just didn't make the list this time, that's all. We keep the list on the page at 5 sites, and have the full community list at: https://www.wincustomize.com/directory.asp

Skinbase referred more than DA? Wow, that place is more popular than I thought... I'll have to check it out more often.

why do i find this extremely hard to believe. pixtudio, who is listed as #2, just displayed their uniques, impressions and overall stats on their site. well, what they received in a month we receive daily.

so, again, i find this very hard to believe.

Let me state for the record how the system works:

Has anyone here ever played 50/50? Where you buy tickets out of a hat? The more tickets you buy, the better the odds you win.

We wanted to avoid having the link section on the left be political but we didn't want to have a gazillion links either. We wanted to limit it to 5.

So we based it on referrals. Each time a site refers to WinCustomize, it gets a "ticket". At the end of the month, 5 sites are drawn out of the hat. The more referrals one sends, the better the odds.

Pixtudio didn't send that many referrals over for October. It sent fewer than DailyRotation for instance (Daily Rotation sent more than DA though). But it sent enough that it got drawn from the hat.

I took a look at hitbox and DA's referrals to WC declined dramatically in early October. I'm not sure why but I suspect it's because they took the button of WC off on their site and made it a text link. Since they have button links and several text links, it dramatically reduces referrals.

As Jark knows from private conversations, WC would like to see DA pick up more traffic since our bandwidth is really pushed to the edge (particularly right now while we're down a server in the transition to UUnet). But at the same time, we would like to avoid the community section being politicized.

It should be noted, btw, that Stardock, which sents 2/3rds of the referrals only got in on the last draw (it's the last link).

I have to agree w/ you jark, skinbase and pixtudio over DA??? even Customize? am I seeing this right? =/
I would think DA would have the highest referrals, but I'm just guessing =/

oh I see now, that did not make sense to me at first, and yes a text link obviously looses attraction to it vs the button links...

what constitues a referal? pixtudio has all their graphics hosted by wincustomize and therefore it only makes sense their referal rate would be high if you include that. somehow i can only believe that would be why their referal rate is higher.

as for the text -vs- button issue; that might be the case. the fact is why should any site link another in one manner if that other site is not going to link them back in the same way? if WC used buttons then DA would link via a button (which we do, actually, when you consider that buttons are randomly displayed).

oh well...

I think it's key to remember we're debating an automatic script here. The script doesn't care about any particular sites.

Actually if you read the second part of his post you'd see that he's criticizing the entire concept of the script. Reciprocal linking has turned into a whole new ball game these days it appears.

Ah, so this is all a rather unfortunate and messy coincidence then... Not politics...

Exactly. The new links were generated around 10pm on October 31. Just nobody noticed.

I would think that we can all see the silver lining in this. Turn this discussion into an opportunity. Going from a button on DA to a text link amongst many changed the referral count massively. This is useful data for all. This is one of the reasons why we only have 5 links and make sure the area on the left is pretty explicit. This way we can use text and still generate a lot of referrals for whomever is linked.

It's pretty well known in the community that Scott (Jark) and I are friends. So I don't think there can be any better proof that the system isn't politicized.

heh, i just went over to da and there is no link to Wincustomize at all. That leaves 2 possibilties. either they didn't have the link in the first place in which case what are they bitching about? or they had a link and purposely removed it manually as petty revenge. Wincusto didn't intentionally remove DA it seems. seems DA is really trying to prove me right about them. their links are political over there i guess like the rest of the site.

Hmm. This is a bit distressing. As someone who is into statistics, it's unfortunate that they would do this as this will mean they won't have any referrals which means they won't get in the links.

And we have looked at referral counts the other way and I can tell you that no site (other than Stardock) gives as many referrals to us as we give in return when they're in that highlighted 5. Put another way, it is statistically in a given site's best interest to be in that listing of 5 and the best way to do that is via referrals.

But it's Scott's site, he can do what he wishes. No harm no foul.

JayG.....you would be selling jark, DA and the other admins short if you suggested 'petty revenge' or such-like.
The guys at DA are well respected in the world of skin, and, as with all the other dedicated skinning/graphic art sites, are run and managed by people only interested in furthering the cause of skinning/graphics in general.......nothing more 'devious' than that...

Quite honestly, there is little reason for a wincustomize link to remain up if our relationship is to be equivocal.

We have no grudge or other dilemma with WC, simply if the WC formula does not provide for equal advertising for DA, it seems rather demanding and optimistic that DA should pursue a different policy "in hopes" that we should receive similar treatment.

Truly, timing in all of this is rather disappointing, but certainly nothing this community as a whole hasn't endured and bettered themselves from before. Perhaps this small turbulence will bring about a standard methodology towards intercommunity advertising/linking that will create mutually beneficial relationships throughout the graphics scene.

I understand your point completely. We are just trying to avoid politics. As you probably know, we're constantly scrutinized by users for political favoring. We only want to have 5 links. How do we do that? It was easy when DA had the WC button because DA's so popular that that button easily put it at the #2 or #3 referring site so it's was a no brainer. It was DA that changed to a text link.

The type of link is irrelevant, the question is purely equivalence in referrals. We know that those WC links on the left general a few thousand referrals to the given site per month so they're very effective.

I can say that nobody is the least bit unhappy with DeviantART here. As I've said before, the admins here, myself included, see DA/WC relatoinship as one akin to the United States and Great Britain.

It's sometimes also difficult for users to realize how little involvement in the day to day workings of this site Stardock actually has. It would be too expensive. This site would die a quick death without the automation stuff (like those links) and the volunteers. If Pat or me or Alexandrie or whomever had to manually add links to the left and deal with the political ramifications of it, it would be a nightmare.

Brad, I know you love statistics. However, IMHO it would be great if the few true skin sites that are left support each other by at least have a link to their front page. You can still have your hitlist below it in text. If bandwidth for the buttons for the major sites is a concern then use text for that too. As an alternative there is an option to switch icons on or off and maybe you could consider the buttons being icons as well. If icons are hidden use text instead of buttons. For the moment you can set the default to text until the bandwidth is up to par. Everyone will understand that. Having some more links may even improve your statistics. Maybe we should have an option to remove the hitlists on the right. Instead one could have a single link to a page containing all hitlists.

I am switching the icons off and optimize for speed now.

Just my two Dutch cents.

I, personally, found it odd that DA took down our link as soon as it was pointed out that they weren't listed in the box anymore. It was up earlier yesterday. Anyway, there has always been a difference in how the links have been presented. Theirs is "partners", ours is "community". I don't know if people remember the original debate on the number of community sites in that box? How the "little guy" was left out (because they are oart of the community, too)? That is why there is a drawing for it. That is why we wanted to stay out of the political side of it. I guess no matter how the 5 is determined every month, it's wrong. What is right? How do you make everyone happy? Should we just list the top 5? What about the smaller sites? They won't ever be on there. Do we start a seperate "partners" section? But what really constitutes a partner, then? This is all the political side that we were trying to avoid.

I do think that DA, Customize and soon DM should have their little button link, and then, after that the top 5 referals in text links - excluding the 3 above as they should not be linked twice. The top skin sites should support each other.

Amen.

T-Man no likey buttons. Ugly. To much clutter.

how about some kind of specially "Designed Graphic" that serves as a Place holder? and lays "Consistent & features the top 5 sites w/i it?
that way they get that eye appeal which catches the visitors eyes and actually get clicked on (Which is the original purpose)
this is a graphic site right?

something maybe Alex can make place holder design up?

hmmm maybe the box can say "Community" on top and have five little residential houses lined up (Done up in good taste of course)
and on the doors of the houses are the top five links shown instead of the address....

okeee well maybe that example is too cutsey for the guys but I think it would look good if done up right? =/

then you have:
1. Control over the image. (unlike button links)

2. Something that catches the eyes of the visitors and actually gets clicked on and helps divert some traffic

3. Makes it easier cuz then you can just change the links each mo on the place holder.

well I'm alil bored this morning waiting for my work... hehe