Fixing & Improving the AI Difficulty Tooltips/Options

from Elemental Forums

I have started games of FE, where as a disclaimer I believe has moved in the right direction, but on Normal difficulty there is no incentive for me to build units and buildings in the early game despite having the option to build so many of them.. The AI is key to this and game balance.

Ok sure there is an environment to explore and defeat but it needs to interact not simply sit there as fodder. The AI needs to WANT to win also, not simply sit there as a simple measure of your empire building status. If I am impelled to build building or unit A because I am at threat of losing, then the game is infinitely better, more immersive and challenging. I don't want to play against a non crippled AI that has bonuses, I want to play against the best AI possible that plays by the same rules as I. If this is possible, and I'm still winning, then I move onto the next difficulty level and the AI gets bonuses.

This is a request to fix the AI difficulty options/tooltips (below) and make the full AI available as a difficulty selection with customizable options.

Some ideas have been for making the AI difficulty selection better.

Quoting vieuxchat, reply 46
What I'd like : two separate options for AI and for bonuses : Sometimes I'd like to play with the best AI but with economic maluses for it. Or a dumb player with a looot of economic bonuses (which should be separate)

So at start you would choose : AI, gildar generation bonus (flat and/or percentage), mana generation (flat and/or percentage), building time (flat and/or percentage), first level of all created armies (new armies starts at level 2 or 3 or 4 etc.), research bonuses (flat and/or ... you know the jazz), etc.
End of vieuxchat's quote

Quoting LordRikerQ, reply 48
We also need a separate XP slider, so people who dont want Champions of doom can set their heroes to get like 90% less XP and those who want more active heroes can set it to get full XP amounts. This will also do wonders for the difficulty level.
End of LordRikerQ's quote

Quoting jpmcconnell, reply 7
Why not simply have two different sliders? One for AI intelligence and one for AI bonus. Give us the option. If we want to play against the smartest AI brad can come up with but with no bonuses then by all means let us. If we want dumb AI but huge bonuses let us. 

This seems like such an easy and obvious fix that I'm amazed that its included on zero actual games that I can think of.
End of jpmcconnell's quote

Update: For those wanting to play with uncrippled AI and no bonuses, because its not obvious and the tooltips are incorrect in v.77 atm, choose challenging difficulty on the main difficulty screen! The main difficulty options screen changes the AI in the customize opponent screen. So if you want some varied difficulty opponents, change them there instead.

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Reply #1 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree there should be a mode with full AI and no bonuses.

That said I doubt such a mode would be challenging, AI is always at a disadvantage against a human player. For now, just crank up the difficulty - they're wayyy more aggressive on the higher difficulties.

Reply #2 from Elemental Forums Top

Yes I agree, but it should be the norm and how the AI is measured overall rather than what exists now. The current system almost hides the ability or inability of the AI behind bonuses so the end user has no real appreciation of how the uncrippled AI should handle with no bonuses.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #3 from Elemental Forums Top

The AI should not have whole map vision and know everything. The best games are when the AI needs to cheat the least. So for AI taking over your empty city AI should need to scout your city first.

Reply #4 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting TorinReborn, reply 3
The AI should not have whole map vision and know everything. The best games are when the AI needs to cheat the least. So for AI taking over your empty city AI should need to scout your city first.
End of TorinReborn's quote

Their city was bordering mine! They knew exactly where my city was and that my units weren't guarding it.

Reply #5 from Elemental Forums Top

updated to Brad's patch but no difference. 

  • enemy AI ignores even some of the basic goodie huts surrounding their cities
  • no threat to my city from monsters and AI at all..
  • I can simply found my first city, recruit a few champions and walk around killing stuff and then wipe out an enemy AI's kingdom despite it having built numerous buildings, cities and units.. I don't even have to build one!!

I know there is still balance issues but how can you balance a game with crippled AI like this?!

Reply #6 from Elemental Forums Top

"That said I doubt such a mode would be challenging"

The mode for full AI without cheating is called Challenging.  :rofl:

Though right now it is still easy for a human to obliterate.  :S

Reply #7 from Elemental Forums Top

Why not simply have two different sliders? One for AI intelligence and one for AI bonus. Give us the option. If we want to play against the smartest AI brad can come up with but with no bonuses then by all means let us. If we want dumb AI but huge bonuses let us. 

This seems like such an easy and obvious fix that I'm amazed that its included on zero actual games that I can think of.

Reply #8 from Elemental Forums Top

Galciv 2 has it, it actually has a bunch of AI related sliders which would all be handy in this game.

Reply #9 from Elemental Forums Top

I may be mis-remembering but I just thought galciv had the max cpu button that would crank up the intel. Other than that it still just had one slider for the AI difficulty.

Reply #10 from Elemental Forums Top

But you can change the personality of the AI for each faction in that game. You will be able to tweak the AI in this game to an unheard of level once it is finished. 

Right now, if you care to look at some XML, you will see that you can make an infinite number of difficulty settings and have them shown at the starting screen. It just takes a little modding know-how. So make any kind you want. 

Reply #11 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jpmcconnell, reply 7
Why not simply have two different sliders? One for AI intelligence and one for AI bonus. Give us the option. If we want to play against the smartest AI brad can come up with but with no bonuses then by all means let us. If we want dumb AI but huge bonuses let us. 

This seems like such an easy and obvious fix that I'm amazed that its included on zero actual games that I can think of.
End of jpmcconnell's quote

Yes I think this solution would work well and appease many rather than forcing everyone to play with crippled AI and or bonuses! Let us have the option to beta test the AI and see how smart it actually is without bonuses. 

Quoting seanw3, reply 10
But you can change the personality of the AI for each faction in that game. You will be able to tweak the AI in this game to an unheard of level once it is finished. 

Right now, if you care to look at some XML, you will see that you can make an infinite number of difficulty settings and have them shown at the starting screen. It just takes a little modding know-how. So make any kind you want. 
End of seanw3's quote

I agree that basic XML modding is easy but we're Beta tester,s and the AI needs fixing first and foremost before any modding occurs!

Reply #12 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting seanw3, reply 10
But you can change the personality of the AI for each faction in that game. You will be able to tweak the AI in this game to an unheard of level once it is finished. 

Right now, if you care to look at some XML, you will see that you can make an infinite number of difficulty settings and have them shown at the starting screen. It just takes a little modding know-how. So make any kind you want. 
End of seanw3's quote

The solution to everything cannot be "just mod it in". While some people are active moders and have no problem getting into the XML code other are not. I happen to be one of the former and probably will make some specialized changes, but we have to recognize that the base game without any modifications has to be as an enjoyable experience as possible.

Reply #13 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah, we've got to remember that most people who play the game won't play any mods, especially without a built-in interface. Look at Civ5, about the only thing good about that game is the integrated mod manager and portal, and the numbers show mods don't get played by most.

Reply #14 from Elemental Forums Top

 

Of course constructive criticism is good but please keep in mind that this is the beta.

 

We all knew the AI would be less than perfect going in.

 

 

 

Reply #15 from Elemental Forums Top

I agree Thormodr, however it never hurts to inform of what we're seeing so that Brad has an idea of what we're seeing in our games.  If it's constructive, I say let them know.

The only problem I'm seeing so far is that A.I. doesn't understand it's own odds going into a battle.  In my last game, I had a single Archer Group and a basic Spearmen unit attack my City that had substaintial defender bonuses, and two units stationed inside.  They creamed the attacking force in two turns.  A human wouldn't have bothered with that assault.  The A.I. also seems to under-value Champions - they've attacked my Army, where my Sovereign, two fully kitted out Champions and a handful of Units where together, with barely enough to take down the Units on their own.  It's almost as if they ignored the huge difference the Sovereign and Champions make.

Reply #16 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Thormodr, reply 14

Of course constructive criticism is good but please keep in mind that this is the beta.

We all knew the AI would be less than perfect going in. 
End of Thormodr's quote

yeah but the problem is that WOM was meant to have decent AI... then over the last year it was supposed to have been made better....

then I believe Brad made the claim on the forum here that the AI is soooo much better than WOM 1.4 AI.. Now its a beta and all, but when and how do we measure the effectiveness of the AI if at Normal difficulty the AI is crippled, and at full effectiveness and highest difficulty its got bonuses attached to it?? To me that makes no logical sense whatsoever..

Do we wait until after release and multiple patches to critique the AI and how (in)effective it is, or considering how the difficulty is based on varying levels of crippled AI and bonus attachment, can we really ever? The AI and difficulty needs fixing period.

 

Reply #20 from Elemental Forums Top

Seems like there is lot of support for seeing the unassisted full AI without bonuses, so we can test it and hopefully help the devs improve it for the release.

Reply #21 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting jpmcconnell, reply 9
I may be mis-remembering but I just thought galciv had the max cpu button that would crank up the intel. Other than that it still just had one slider for the AI difficulty.
End of jpmcconnell's quote

If you went into the edit civ section on the AI civ selection screen each civ had 4 or 5 sliders. A slider for CPU useage (intelligence), a slider for economy (to give them more or less money to play with), a slider for aggressiveness, and one for good/evil, possibly another I don't remember. Each difficulty level was just an alteration to those sliders, so by manually adjusting them you could tweak them to play how you wanted. IE as smart as possible but without any economy boost or penalty for a "fair" challenge.

Reply #22 from Elemental Forums Top

I actually saw some pioneers being sent out with protection.  Thank you Brad!  That is good AI.  Unfortunately, I also some other pioneers without protection.  :-(  Armies are pretty weak compared to higher-level champions so we need the AI to plan accordingly. 

Reply #23 from Elemental Forums Top

Yeah I agree the AI should always be the best AI you can make, at all difficultly levels, even on easy.  Adjust difficulty by adjusting economy, mana, damage, hit points, etc.  

"Normal" should be maximum AI with no bonuses or penalties on either side.  Besides, I think it would be easier to develop if there is only one AI that needs to be coded.

Reply #24 from Elemental Forums Top

Quoting Fearzone, reply 23
Yeah I agree the AI should always be the best AI you can make, at all difficultly levels, even on easy.  Adjust difficulty by adjusting economy, mana, damage, hit points, etc.  

"Normal" should be maximum AI with no bonuses or penalties on either side.  Besides, I think it would be easier to develop if there is only one AI that needs to be coded.
End of Fearzone's quote

exactly, common sense I would believe.

 

Another AI thread where one poster has written that maybe Stardock needs to get in another AI programmer (asap before release preferably). AI was a let down, among many in WOM, and for FE to be good considering it has no multiplayer, it really needs excellent AI.

Way too easy
https://forums.elementalgame.com/416087

Reply #25 from Elemental Forums Top

Another thread mentioning better than WOM standard AI but nevertheless not upto scratch.

[Balance] Gameplay Feedback - Won a Large map/Hard AI game with 3 Cities and 4 Heroes
https://forums.elementalgame.com/415935

"They didn't respect me as a threat - because I was sticking to three cities and not expanding, I was at the bottom of the leaderboard or at best in the middle (once I started mass-razing nearby opponents), so the 'winning' AI of my faction were content to ally with me and let me stomp everyone else." - Mtrixis