Why was News item deleted?

Well, I'm not going to discuss why it was deleted, that is pretty clear, but let's talk about that product vs WB right here in the message board then.
I think personnaly it will depend on how the themes are distributed. Once a theme is created with the product, then what? You keep it for yourself? Or you distribute it? What format are the themes going to be? Will it require a third party software to apply them to XP? Or will the theme builder generate some sort of EXE that will install the files in the proper Windows directory. There is no "browse" button within XP to go get a new theme and apply it. There are no native ways in Windows to add new themes. So, how are the themes created by that program be applied?

My point is basically that if the themes created with that product make it so that people don't need a third party product to apply the themes, then yes, indeed, it will be a huge threat for Windowblinds, no matter how good WB is. But if it requires a third party product, then it's no different than WB and WB already has a head start.

We'll just have to wait and see. When a beta or a demo is available I know I'll give it a try, as will a lot of people. We'll have to see from there.

I read that article, and agree.
This kind of censorship is pathetic.
I am curious as to how, this is going to be justified??

1.It competes with a Stardock application.
2.It is just not News worthy
3.Ooooopppsssyyy Did I hit the delete button.
4.Server Error

Apparently that news was not important enough for all in this "community" to be made aware of. It really is getting crazy around here.

Pathetic indeed

I tried to contact Tarkus about it, unfortunatley the email address he has doesn't work as my email bounced back saying his mail box was suspended. But I have created a second news item that talks about the issue at hand.

And yes, feel free to talk about it here on the message board.

And yes, it is censorship. We reserve the right to control what news items are posted. It should be noted that we do post Hoverdesk news items so it's not a "competitor" issue alone.

/me wonders how long it will take to get my last comment deleted??

BTW, Tarkus, let me say this again because your opinion matters a lot to us. I really did try to email you first. It was when your email bounced back that I deleted it. Do you have a working email address so that I can contact you in the future?

This is what I received:
This message could not be delivered to the following recipients:

:
This mailbox has been suspended. (#5.2.1)

Let's try that again:

This message could not be delivered to the following recipients:
karnevil9@theXfiles.com
This mailbox has been suspended. (#5.2.1)

Here is what I wrote in the updated news item:

Here are the facts:
1) Windows XP was not designed to allow skinners to skin it without the help of a third party program.

2) Windows XP visual styles are digitally signed by Microsoft. They did this for reasons discussed in the article.

3) Anyone wanting to add additional skins to Windows XP is going to have to download some third party program.

Over time, there will probably be plenty of options for people. But the term that really annoys me is when someone say WindowBlinds isn't "native". What does that mean? To non-technical people out there, bundling != native.

Windows XP comes with a DLL called uxtheme.dll. It runs a service when you boot (one of the svchost.exe services) that loads up a skin file called luna.msstyles from the hard disk and then sends it to uxtheme.dll to apply it.

WindowBlinds XP isn't bundled with Windows XP. It comes with a DLL called uxtheme.dll. It runs a program currently called wbload.exe that loads a skin file from the hard disk and sends parts of it to uxtheme.dll (the stuff that it can handle) and then additional features are sent to wblind.dll.

Now, other developers are likely to look at using uxtheme.dll too since it does the painting. Those developers will have a few choices in front of them:

1) They can try to use our skin language .UIS but that would violate our copyright as stated at the beginning of all .UIS documentation and has been discussed in the past when developers tried to take the easy way out and rip our skin language.

2) They can try to create their very own skin language ala Chroma or eFX.

3) They can borrow Microsoft's .msstyles skin language and hope that the Microsoft lawyers don't squash them into oblivion.

But in all 3 cases, it requires some third paty EXE to be run that takes the file and sends it to uxtheme.dll.

In options 1 and 3, this site won't support that. I.e. we won't support programs that rip our skin language or Microsoft's skin language (unless Microsoft publicly and officially gives the okay -- we're not going to support ripping). If they take option 2, if they gain enough support, we can look at supporting that here (but we won't create a section for "XPSkinner" or whatever if it only had a dozen or two skins, it has to have serious support).

But the most maddening thing in dealing with the misconceptions of Windows XP visual styles is the whole "native" thing. WindowBlinds XP IS native. And more importantly, it just today got Micrsosoft Windows XP certified. It was launched at Microsoft on September 26 and we worked closely with the shell team during the engine development for months during the beta.

So one of Stardock's jobs is to make sure that if someone develops a skin program that happens to read .msstyles that people don't say "oh, now see, that's native!" If WindowBlinds happened to load up .INI files (and that is what .msstyle's format is based on -- INI -- NOT XMLS) that corresponded to .msstyles it wouldn't become and more or less native.

The route that most casual users really would probably prefer is that Microsoft lifted the MS digitally signed requirement for visual styles. Then you wouldn't need a third party program at all.

But the fact is, they HAVE TO BE MICROSOFT DIGITALLY SIGNED TO WORK. And getting around that requires a third party program.

And once you require someone to download some program from somewhere, then it's purely a matter of which skin language is better. I obvously would argue WindowBlinds is. It was designed by the skin authors themselves over a period of 3 years. It was designed with skinning in mind. Microsoft's design was desgiend for internal Microsoft use in order to create a specific skin -- Windows XP style (aka Luna).

I hope this clears things up. Please feel free to comment. I tried to email Tarkus earlier about deleting his post about xpstyler or whatever but we felt that such a news item was not appropriate (it doesn't yet exist and it may in fact be illegal and we're not willing to incur MS's wrath), a message post would be fine though if people want to talk about that sort of thing. But the potential program in question isn't any more "native" than WB is. It just borrows .msstyles (without MS's permission btw which is probably why they have to meet with them) as their skin format. It would be akin to Chroma 2.0 coming out and reading .msstyles. That wouldn't make it more native than any other skinning program.

And it will still require that they convince skin authors to make skisn that only work on Windows XP using a skin language that doesn't do nearly as much as WindowBlinds (and for the record, WindowBlinds does skin just as many GUI elements as Windows XP and it does so on more programs).

an urge to avoid compitition is understandable, but this site hardly seems to exist solely as a stardock proganda tool.

also the question of ripping off Microsofts (or anyones) skin file format is very valid. other sorts of rips are lept on with both feet by all concerned.

the explination for the artical removal seems quite reasonable to me. perhaps the site admins should be given the benifit of the doubt?

After checking the site up more attentively, TGTSoft seem to have 2 products, Styles XP and Style Builder. The first will probably be the software needed to apply the themes made with the Builder. My guess is that they will probably have their own format and that you will need to purchase Styles XP in order to apply the skins.
So, it looks to me like it's only going to be an alternative to Windowblinds. We'll just have to wait to see if it'll be better or not.

It looks to me that they're going to use .msstyles as their skin format. This woudl be why they have to talk to Microsoft -- to see if MS is going to sue them into oblivion for using it.

I sure don't mind people discussing this sort of thing in the message board. But as a news item? No.

btw whats link so i can check em out?

yeah xp skin is kinda limited i prefer wb bec thats only way i can set skin to certain way ( aka watery's one button interface heh )

I think it's www.TGTSoft.com

Frogboy: Sorry about the broken email account. I had no idea there was a problem there (they never notified me, and I still don't know why it's suspended). I wouldn't have created this thread if I had gotten your email first. In any case, my email account has now been updated on this site.

XX: http://www.tgtsoft.com/product.html

It seems to me like they are pretty safe. From the little that I have looked at msstyles, it appears that it is just a resource dll. I may be missing something, but can find no "skinning language" within XP itself.

I'm keeping an eye on tese guys, so far I don't think much of Window blinds XP.

And the fact this website deleted a link to there website is prett poor. That ribbon displayed on your frontpage is to support freedom, is freedom of speach suddenly unimportant??

The word is 'speech', and, as always people are misinformed about what 'freedom of speech' is all about.
It's about the right to hold an opinion contrary to others or the norm. It does not pertain to some alleged right to say anything and everything you wish, without fear of repercussions.
Slander, Libel, defamation, racism and fowl language are not covered by this so-called 'freedom'.
In the case of a post being deleted for reasons of potential copyright violation I see no problem, nor do I see a violation of someone's civil rights.

As a professional, I am well aware of the importance of discretion and common sense when issues affecting legality and copyright are raised.
And it ain't got nuffin to do with freedom of speech....

ghostman: Have you ever read the 1st Amendment?

In the XP beta newsgroup they are aledging that the Developers of that program are meeting with MS on the 22nd to iron the permissions thing.....we shall see....

It should be interesting to see if MS gives someone the go ahead to effectively crack MS's digital signing mechanism. If one steps away from looking at it from a "I want more skins" point of view, it sends a chilling message.

Patching uxtheme.dll is akin to downloading a crack to take out the copy protection of a commercial game. It's hard to see how MS would be okay with that. If they are, I can't help but wonder how many hours we could have saved over the years by simply patchign and replacing Windows system DLLs. Imagine how easy WindowBlinds would have been to write if we simply replaced the Windows system DLLs with ours.

"Amendment I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. "

Borrowed Generously from Legal Information Institute.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/topics/first_amendment.html

"The most basic component of freedom of expression is the right of freedom of speech. The right to freedom of speech allows individuals to express themselves without interference or constraint by the government. The Supreme Court requires the government to provide substantial justification for the interference with the right of free speech where it attempts to regulate the content of the speech. A less stringent test is applied for content-neutral legislation. The Supreme Court has also recognized that the government may prohibit some speech that may cause a breach of the peace or cause violence. The right to free speech includes other mediums of expression that communicates a message.

Despite popular misunderstanding the right to freedom of the press guaranteed by the first amendment is not very different from the right to freedom of speech. It allows an individual to express themselves through publication and dissemination. It is part of the constitutional protection of freedom of expression. It does not afford members of the media any special rights or privileges not afforded to citizens in general."

I guess that seems to cover it.
Now it all seems to come down to the fact that this is a privately supported site, and will reflect the wishes, of the owners. That's it in a NutShell. We can either like it or not.
The right to free speech, does not gaurentee, that people have to listen.

Cygnus....'guarantee'....

Yeah, well the Amendment are only valid in the US of A. Freedom is interpreted somewhat differently from one country to the other.
In Canada, it's very vague, and that's why the judges in Supreme Court have a pretty safe job.

Part I of our Constitution Act, commonly refered to the Canadian Charter of Rights and Liberties start like this:

Rights and freedoms in Canada
1. The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms guarantees the rights and freedoms set out in it subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.

Fundamental freedoms
2. Everyone has the following fundamental freedoms:
(a) freedom of conscience and religion;
(b) freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression, including freedom of the press and other media of communication;
(c) freedom of peaceful assembly; and
(d) freedom of association.

And the different liberties garanteed in the constitution go on into 34 points... But the bit about freedom of speech is what you see above, in item (b) of the second point... but is restricted by the point 1. No wonder constitutional judges and lawyers are paid millions.

Isn't WinCustomize located in Afganastan? In fact, I hear something now outside...is it a plane...hold on.

/me goes outside to check

Hmm.


There seems to be a light coming.

Closer..

Closer..


BAM!