Agreed, I think dead eye should just be 100% stun for a second or two at level 15 not at level 1. That along with giving him a 6.3 base speed would make him a lot more playable then his current incarnation without upsetting things terribly.

When it comes to balancing games I have always had the philosophy of less is more. Small suttle changes (changes in base stats etc...) are better then large ones (adding interrupts etc...).

I WANT TO PLAY!!!!!! thats why i still follow these threads. That and the fact that DG has one of the best, sadly smallest, communities online.

I agree with this. Snipe is a good skill early on but half way through a game it becomes an almost worthless skill tree that you have invested a few points in already. Giving it a stun at lvl 15 would vault it into a good skill tree the whole way and would help reg as a character since he really does fall way behind every other character in the game at lvl 15 and beyond. all though 2 seconds with that kind of range would be a bit much i think.

As far as MotB I don't think its like pent. Maybe in the delivery system and the fact that they both give slows and damage but it ends there. Mark is AoE, its more damage, its slow is like 4 times as much as pent, but it depends on an activation of a power by the other player after being marked where as pent is all instant. Just because the delivery system works like oak's or TB's does not mean it is the ideal power to put an interrupt on. Putting an interrupt on mark says to me that we are trying to balance the characters through their delivery of powers, and that kind of unification of different characters in their play style does not sit well with me. Diversity is what makes things interesting.

That and the fact that DG has one of the best, sadly smallest, communities online.

These two factors are interrelated, you know 'Cult' game communities are always >>> massively popular game communities. Assholes constitute a fair share of casual players. Dedicated fellows are usually serious and mature.

We actually seem to have a decent bit of consensus on Deadeye/Impedance on Snipe and some kind of speed increase.  That's a pretty good start for Reg, since most of his skills are actually somewhat useful already.  I'd also like to see Maim improved in at least duration, and Deadeye improved in chance, but it's best to do a small number of changes at a time to best feel out their impact.

I'll post a mini-mod tonight or tomorrow that has only the two basic Reg changes and DA's speed increase.  I'm also gonna work on a fix for Warp Area targeting for the upcoming UberFix release, but I'm a bit puzzled as to exactly what is happening, because WA already re-targets on every hop, and checks whether or not the target is dead (and meta-impacted targets should be dead the moment they're hit).

We should probably get a new thread for this, or something.

What are everyone's specific thoughts on Reg's speed?  Increase base speed, or add ~2.5% per level to Angelic Fury?

Givea interrupt to ground spikes! Make itthe same length as mass charm!

If its a vote I think base speed increase is a good idea for reg. I'm not opposed to smaller buffs with angelic fury either - in the same way fire aura makes tb faster..I'm not sure of the numbers on that one.

Fire Aura is 5/10/15.

I'm thinking either 3/6/9/12 or 3.5/7/10.5/15 for Fury.  No more than Fire Aura, less per point, but better than 6.3 base when maxed out.

The question is, do we want his speed boost to require a skill?  I don't really care either way, because I usually get a few points in Fury no matter what, and 6-7% is a little better than 6.3 base unless you've got some serious speed items.

I want reg to have a increase of 6.3 to his base stats as well as adding some sort of percentage to his movement speed with each rank of angelic fury. If you can get him to run around with 7.0 movement speed with angelic fury at rank 4 I think that would be about right. 

I dunno, that's a lot of built-in speed.  Even 6.0 with 15% from Angelic Fury would only be 6.9.  I'd prefer to boost Maim to 5/10/15 for 5s and do one speed boost.  See what everyone else thinks, I guess?

Well my thought was that I would rather have reg be able to run away late game then be fodder for UB.

Well, better Maim would help with that, especially with increased duration.  3 seconds is not long enough to help escape or kiting, only pursuit, and barely at that.  Additionally, when in pursuit, I'd rather be able to slow the target down enough to delay their escape to their towers.

We also don't want Reg to be able to always run away from everyone with absolute assurance, or he'll become the most annoying demigod to play against and will be nigh-unkillable until the towers are no longer a significant factor.

The absolute max speed combo I could see doing would be 6.3 + 3%/level on Fury, for 7.05 at IV.  For comparison, UB hits 6.93 at an earlier level with Inner Beast, and DA with 6.3 base and unchanged Demon's Speed would max at 7.245 at the same level as UB (10 I think?).

I guess that's reasonable, if we're tabling a speed increase at all.  But personally, I'd rather some of that be on Maim instead.

UB only hits 6.9

Like I said 7.0 speed at rank 4 of Angelic Fury sounds about right to me.

Maim is already very useful vs oak, sedna and oom da. Increasing his speed will only increase maims usefullness but I can see where your coming from with adding more time to maim.

I still like how we are totally only basing one demigod based on one demigod. 

You've done nothing but shoot down everything everyone suggests for every demigod, without really offering any alternatives.

Care to step up to the plate?

For what it's worth, I've played about a dozen AI-mod nightmare games with Reg on this setup, and I'm still getting stomped, using mines+snipe+fury+mark and staff of renewal.  Snipe still becomes entirely pointless past about level 12-15 because everyone's got 5k+ health, and they're running/porting (and/or sigiling) with far more HP than Snipe can ever do.  The deadeye snipe stun would certainly help with real teammates, but as one might expect, it does nothing significant on its own when you're using it from long range and have nothing to follow up with.

The speed has so far only helped early on, where the towers provide meaningful support.  Once the AI have enough health to shrug off towers (and snipe...) all the speed in the world doesn't really do any good, and one good snare means you're dead anyway.

I even added an additional 3% speed bonus to Vengeance, and I don't think that comes close to incentivizing it enough.  The blast radius and damage are just too small to be at all useful when you already have Angelic Fury IV, which lets you kill the same number of creeps at a much faster speed (and without the four+ seconds of immobile vulnerability) for a whole ~160 mana.  I can use the framework I created for this to add other Fury-active bonuses to it, but I'm not sure what would make it worthwhile other than just more damage.

Here's a test release to play around with.
http://code.google.com/p/nubletsupreme/downloads/detail?name=CRP_0.1.zip

Regulus:
- Snipe now always applies Impedance Bolt and Deadeye stun when those abilities are present
- Base speed increased to 6.3
- Angelic Fury adds +3% speed per level (including Vengeance), up to +15%

Demon Assassin:
- Base speed increased to 6.3

Snipe stun is set at 1.5s right now.  Any less than that is totally meaningless, since it isn't really viable as an interrupt (unless you're really, really good at anticipating your enemies' behavior).

lol, I've offered plenty in the past, nothing here is new or original

Give an example?  I'm serious.  I'm not dead-set on any of this, nor am I (or anyone else) implying that it's new and brilliant.  These are really simple changes, but they're all that's being offered.  Reg needs something, and I don't know what it is, and apparently nor does anyone else.

If anyone really thinks an interrupt on Mark will make Reg anything more than extremely annoying (while still being incredibly easy to kill), I can add that in too.  But plenty of people have put forth really good explanations for why that's not the solution, and I agree with them.

It's not that difficult to do more complex stuff like making Mark detonate on snipe, making Mark multiply Reg's damage to anyone who has it, etc.  I'm trying to keep changes simple and to things agreed upon by several people who play Reg, so there's actually a chance that they'll be tested.

And for the record, I don't think Mark is the skill most in need of boosting, although its cooldown is a bit long.  That's why I like the Snipe detonate - it's an indirect boost to Snipe by using Mark as a multiplier.

OK, but we need to do some actual "testing"

Simply making changes and then having everyone play "that way" is not really methodical.

eg: Erebus may not really care if weaker ass reg has 20% movement when the can simply pop beside and bite / stun / kill, but this may be a real problem for DA if he can't get any closer to Reg then range 21 for the 1st 10 levels.

Another eg: What is the implication of a Reg with fast speed angelic fury for each and every "typical build" on other DGs. You must also consider what this means for n00b, medium and pro skill levels. eg: Either one of those categories might have a problem mitigating some change.

eg3: Some potential (but not complete) problems that might crop up on build vs build changes.
Noobs might be oblivious to the obvious way to counter a tactic that becomes incredibly insane vs anything they can do
Mediums might understand the problem, but not have the micro skills to mitigate it
Pros might find an unconquerable exploit that railroads their opponent into defeat 100% of the time.

I dunno... there are alot of ideas... so let's defer to Pacov... what are the 1st set of changes you want to try out since this is your thread.... Mr. Pandora.

miriyaka released a few simple changes to test out how they work, I suggest you download as I did.

Anyway ill take a look when I have the chance, I didn't realise this was up here until my just-before-bed-forum-sniffing.

goodnight!

Reposting the link in case people are scrolling past it:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
http://code.google.com/p/nubletsupreme/downloads/detail?name=CRP_0.1.zip
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Regulus:
- Snipe now always applies Impedance Bolt and Deadeye stun when those abilities are present
- Base speed increased to 6.3
- Angelic Fury adds +3% speed per level (including Vengeance), up to +15%

Demon Assassin:
- Base speed increased to 6.3

The DA change is just a token thing at this point, something that nobody has disagreed with.  Don't want to do any controversial changes to DA (which is anything but base speed) until we've got a few things worked out for Reg.

Again, for the record, I have found ZERO evidence of Forceful Blows 'wasting' Warp Area teleports.  If you can prove otherwise, I'll see if I can fix that in the UberFix, but at the moment it seems to be working exactly as intended.

Re: Reg speed vs DA range, will not be a problem.  DA gets more speed at earlier levels, for fewer points, and Reg cannot kite him at all with Maim as DA can warp in on Reg with WS III (level 7) if he ever tries to fire at DA.  Reg also cannot have the max possible Fury, Scope, and Maim combination needed at < level 7 to have even a chance of kiting a DA with Warp Strike II, another up-side of attaching speed to Fury instead of just giving him high base.

I can see a few other matchups maybe being made more difficult due to the increased speed, but this is freakin' Regulus we're talking about here.  Right now everyone can bend him over and have their way, and giving him a little control over escape and/or flow of battle in some of those situations isn't going to make him imbalanced.

You can't take multiple points early in AA skills in this game, this is why Angelic Fury is a bad skill.
eg: I've seen people take 1 point in it to farm and power blade of the serpent, but that is about all you can get away with.

I'd also point out that adding a crap load of speed to Reg does not let him extend and retreat earlier on. He struggles enough in his lane focusing on his damage skills, sinking points into a skill that now provides speed simply makes it harder to actually push a DG to be able to extend, nullifying the point of speed. However, a Reg with a crap load of speed has dire consequences in long games when he is pew-pew-pewing that crap out of you with Mage Slayer and Ashkandor. Be careful.

I am thinking that the bonuses on these skills should be front loaded because you can't affor to sink point in them early in the game.

Example of what I mean: Maim is 5/7/10 and 1/2 the bonus comes from one point.

So I am thinking

1) Fury should grant 5% speed, giving you some pretty decent advantages for one point.
2) Maim should have a duration of 4

Those 2 give you a net 10% speed difference for 2 points, and if you want to kite you take anklet, giving a net 25% speed difference, and that should pretty much be the upper limit (because it is the upper limit for everyone else sinking 2 skill points)

Part II of AA skills
Scope is the other skill people occasionally sink 1 early point into to blast away on towers, so it should do something extra as well.

One thing I;ve noticed that is actually really helpful for Reg is getting extra vision radius. This allows him to extend without the need for speed.

So idea: Scope should increase vision raidus, and be front loaded in the bonus to allow Reg to position better

eg: 8/12/16 +vision (omni should also be 50% higher or so, so if you are looking at your map you see DGs at a further distance)

So in summary of AA skills

-Front load AA skill bonuses as maim does, so 1 early point offers some pretty decent advantage
-Maim 4 second Duration (3 is too low, 4 is what UB has, so start there)
-Fury 5% speed (1 point in fury is pretty nice now)
-Scope gives +Vision Radius (Option to increase Reg's positioning and ability to extend without too much speed buffs which have pretty significant late game consequences, +vision also let's your teamates see what you see, so anyone in your lane is indirectly getting this ability too.)

I agree with the bolded statement but adding speed to angelic fury isn't supposed to make you prioritize it over mines and snipe, IMO those should always be taken over angelic fury. Adding speed to angelic fury makes regs late game better because after you have dumped all your points into mark, mines and snipe angelic fury is the next logical path to put your stuff into. I have a saying that goes like this, "all regs become AA regs late game" Giving speed to angelic fury will help his survivability late game which is one of his largest issues.

I do not understand how you can say that adding speed to reg wont let him extend and retreat earlier on. You must not understand the siginificance of a base speed of 6.3.

He's posting without trying it out.  I clearly stated that I played a bunch of games with this, and the speed increase was noticeable early on with only one or two points in Fury, but that it actually wasn't terribly effective later on (some of that may be due to the excessive amount of gold that Nightmare AIs get, but w/e).

If we're going to give 5% to level I of fury, we may as well just boost his base speed higher, because everyone's gonna take one point in it sooner rather than later.  You don't make blatant concessions to existing skill choices when trying to boost a skill, e.g. "everyone only takes level I, so only buff level I".  That's a terrible way to decide which skills to boost, and how.

Frontloaded skills are bad.  On the other hand, skills that do absolutely nothing at level I (*cough*elusiveness*cough*) are equally bad.  You always want to find the middle ground.

And don't interpret my previous post as a suggestion that you should prioritize Maim, Scope, and Fury for early Reg - that would still be really stupid.  I was simply shooting down the idea that the Fury speed bonus lets Reg actually kite DA, UB, Erebus, etc even with a worst-case-stupid-ass-build.