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Demigod Challenge - The Useful Dodge Build

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Demigod Challenge - The Useful Dodge Build

from Demigod Forums

Ok guys,

If you get bored and want to try something out, see if you can come up with a useful dodge build on a dg.

Some things to know: 

  • There is a 40% dodge cap in the game (you DO NOT get any benefit from dodge past 40%)
  • Dodge works on auto attacks
  • Dodge only works to evade ub spit for some reason (specifically, let's say with spit you lose 40 hp every second for 7 seconds.  With dodge, you can't avoid getting directly hit by spit (eg you can't dodge the ability cast), but you dodge that 40hp damage each second for the duration of spit.  So, at second 2, you might dodge the damage, at second 3, you might get hit, at second 4 you might dodge, and so on).  It does not avoid any other abilities
  • The 2 best dgs for a dodge build are demon assassin and erebus
    • Demon assassin has an ability that can be leveled in game for 5% evasion per level
    • Erebus has a level 15 ability that increases his dodge by 10%
  • Generals have a favor item called the pendant of grace that gives them 10% evasion and their minions 15% evasion
  • And last, the cheapest item that gives a dodge bonus = the assassins foot guards (10% dodge + 5% attack speed for 1,750 gold)

There are some items that give evasion bonuses, but aren't exceptionally useful (desperate boots give like 20% evade, but only when you are down to 30% or so of your hp).  There are other items at the artifact shop that provide dodge bonuses, but they are quite expensive (possible in filthy rich games, but generally not viable anywhere else).

Anyway, I've come up with a few builds, but they all sacrifice some strengths and make them undesirable.  The goal is not just to get to the maximum 40% dodge cap, but to come up with a build that is very useful against talented opponents.  Anyway, take the challenge and give it a go if you want. I'll post some of my builds as I come up with anything viable.  I'm sure I have a few semi-viable ones, but nothing super.

Some starting thoughts:

Go erebus with the pendant of grace.  Buy monks, then get bite, and then coven.  When you have 1750, get the assassin footguards.  This puts you up to 20% dodge with minion dodge at 15%.  Play however you like after that, but you need to max out mist so that as soon as you hit level 15, you can finish off mist and get the 10% evasion bonus (which also heals your minions and allied dgs (if I remember right).  This only gets you to 30% dodge, but the huge benefit of being erebus is that you can still bat swarm away as long as you are mindful of your mana.  This is very nice for the dodge build.

Another thought - go da.  Favor item choice is up to you.  Perhaps be cautious at the start and farm by a tower to hit level 2 or so.  Go back and buy the assassins foot guards.  When you hit level 2, put a point into evasion.  This brings you up to 15% dodge VERY quickly. Figure the rest out.

From some quick tests in filthy rich games, you can VERY quickly level up dodge.  Buy the assassins foot guards immediately.  Go to the artifact shop and get all fathers (I did some testing and in a dodge build, this seems to be best on filthy).  That brings you up to 20% dodge immediately.  If you have a general, you can choose the pendant and hit 30% instantly.  Then, save up for cloak to max out at 40%.  If you are a da, you can skip cloak and just buy a level of evasion every time it comes up.  You'll hit 40% in no time. 

Anyway, the trick is not in getting to 40%.  The trick is coming up with a viable build that is effective and uses dodge. 

demigod
15,131 views 35 replies
Reply #26 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting miriyaka, reply 24



There is no way to do a 'soft cap' other than using the same system as armor, where each point of evasion gives you the same relative percent of dodge.

End of miriyaka's quote

The amount of dodge available through skills and items is the soft cap. 75% is the most you can possibly get. You can never get 100% so its capped.

Reply #27 from Demigod Forums Top

You can evade tower damage.

Star Control: Origins
Reply #28 from Demigod Forums Top

That's not a soft cap.  A soft cap assumes diminishing absolute values (though not necessarily relative values) so that 100% can never be reached no matter how much of something you get.  That's just limited availability.

Quoting LORD-ORION, reply 27
You can evade tower damage.
End of LORD-ORION's quote
I have never seen a ToL tower beam evade.  It should be possible according to the code, but it doesn't seem to happen.

Reply #29 from Stardock Forums Top

miri - how much of a pain would it be to make a mod that made it so dodge would work on all abilities?  Small effort or pain?

Reply #30 from Demigod Forums Top

I'd say it should be targetable abilities not AOE if it was possible... 

Reply #31 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting OMG_pacov, reply 29
miri - how much of a pain would it be to make a mod that made it so dodge would work on all abilities?  Small effort or pain?
End of OMG_pacov's quote

Probably a pain, because GPG was not consistent with their ability damage methods.  Lots of them use local damage tables + DealDamage() instead of using the buff system with -health buffs, like they're supposed to.  So you'd have to manually go through and override every single ability function that uses its own damage table, which is like a third of them.  This would also fully break compatibility with any other mods that touch these abilities.

It would be possible to make a simple proof of concept mod that enables dodge for absolutely everything by simply bypassing the check for the damagedata evasion flag, but I would not recommend this for actual balance/gameplay.

Reply #32 from Demigod Forums Top

sorry miriyaka i should not have used the term soft cap. I say just remove the dam cap, and if possible double the amount of hp and manna that desperate boots gives. that shouldn't be as hard to code and try right?

Reply #33 from Demigod Forums Top

I guess, but I'm not sure how well-balanced it would be, even without the cap.  The cap only comes into play when you have at least 3 items, or two items and a max-level skill.  If you have more dodge items than that, you're either paying a crapload for them (Cloak of Elfinkind at least; desperate boots only add evasion on <30% health), or you're still making huge sacrifices in HP and armor, and are worse off than if you focused in either or both of those two.

That's why I made a big post on doing it like armor.  As for how difficult it would be, not terribly.  Maybe two or three hours.  The main issue is that it would be a new system to learn (even if identical to armor), would need UI work to display total evasion amount and chance (not my specialty, but I might be able to figure it out), and it would break compatibility with existing mods that have evasion percents.

While it would be possible to have it 'convert' those percents into points on the fly, I don't think it would be possible to update descriptions and such.  Could be wrong about that, though.

Reply #34 from Demigod Forums Top

It would be possible to make a simple proof of concept mod that enables dodge for absolutely everything by simply bypassing the check for the damagedata evasion flag, but I would not recommend this for actual balance/gameplay.
End of quote

Well... if that's easy and possible and if you think of it, please do.  I'm curious as to how much of a game changer this would be.  If its any real work, skip it.  Thanks!

Reply #35 from Demigod Forums Top

When I said it was easy, I meant it.  No finesse whatsoever though, and I can assure you that this will be utterly and absolutely awful for balance.

Code: c++
  1. --/lua/sim/ForgeUnit.lua hook for making ALL ABILITIES evadable
  2. local prevClass = ForgeUnit
  4. ForgeUnit = Class(prevClass) {
  5.     CheckEvasion = function(self, data)
  6.         if data.ArmorImmune or data.Type == 'Spell' then
  7.             data.CanBeEvaded = true
  8.         end
  9.         prevClass.CheckEvasion(self, data)
  10.     end,
  11. }

 

Think about it this way - you whiff an auto-attack, and it didn't cost you anything but a max of 1.5 seconds and maybe 100-300 damage.  If an ability misses, you lose 5-45 seconds (10-15 average), 300-1500 damage (~700 average) and 500-1400 mana (~800 average).

Evasion cannot be balanced with abilities, without totally changing the rate at which all abilities can be cast (both cost and cooldown).

 

While individual exceptions could be made for a few specific ~7sec cooldown damage-only abilities (no interrupts) at a greatly-reduced rate of evasion, that's still not a good way to balance evasion at all.

The point system could balance it quite well, because it would let you increase the amount given per item and the number of items that give it, without worrying about it becoming too powerful.  This method (or one like it) is how all well-balanced games handle percent resists of any kind, and there are a whole lot of good reasons for that.

The other common way to do this is a simple relative percent system in which each percent resist modifies current vulnerability, e.g.:
First 50%: 1 - (0.5 * 1) = 0.5
Second 50% = 1 - (0.5 * (1 - 0.5)) = 0.75
Third 50% = 1 - (0.5 * (1 - 0.75)) = 0.875
Fourth 50% = 1 - (0.5 * (1 - 0.875)) = 0.9375

EVE-Online uses this system, plus diminishing returns based on how many times a resist is being modified.  Both of these could also be applied to Demigod, but whether you use this system or a point system, the interface still has to be changed to display it.