Demigod Challenge - The Useful Dodge Build

from Demigod Forums

Ok guys,

If you get bored and want to try something out, see if you can come up with a useful dodge build on a dg.

Some things to know: 

  • There is a 40% dodge cap in the game (you DO NOT get any benefit from dodge past 40%)
  • Dodge works on auto attacks
  • Dodge only works to evade ub spit for some reason (specifically, let's say with spit you lose 40 hp every second for 7 seconds.  With dodge, you can't avoid getting directly hit by spit (eg you can't dodge the ability cast), but you dodge that 40hp damage each second for the duration of spit.  So, at second 2, you might dodge the damage, at second 3, you might get hit, at second 4 you might dodge, and so on).  It does not avoid any other abilities
  • The 2 best dgs for a dodge build are demon assassin and erebus
    • Demon assassin has an ability that can be leveled in game for 5% evasion per level
    • Erebus has a level 15 ability that increases his dodge by 10%
  • Generals have a favor item called the pendant of grace that gives them 10% evasion and their minions 15% evasion
  • And last, the cheapest item that gives a dodge bonus = the assassins foot guards (10% dodge + 5% attack speed for 1,750 gold)

There are some items that give evasion bonuses, but aren't exceptionally useful (desperate boots give like 20% evade, but only when you are down to 30% or so of your hp).  There are other items at the artifact shop that provide dodge bonuses, but they are quite expensive (possible in filthy rich games, but generally not viable anywhere else).

Anyway, I've come up with a few builds, but they all sacrifice some strengths and make them undesirable.  The goal is not just to get to the maximum 40% dodge cap, but to come up with a build that is very useful against talented opponents.  Anyway, take the challenge and give it a go if you want. I'll post some of my builds as I come up with anything viable.  I'm sure I have a few semi-viable ones, but nothing super.

Some starting thoughts:

Go erebus with the pendant of grace.  Buy monks, then get bite, and then coven.  When you have 1750, get the assassin footguards.  This puts you up to 20% dodge with minion dodge at 15%.  Play however you like after that, but you need to max out mist so that as soon as you hit level 15, you can finish off mist and get the 10% evasion bonus (which also heals your minions and allied dgs (if I remember right).  This only gets you to 30% dodge, but the huge benefit of being erebus is that you can still bat swarm away as long as you are mindful of your mana.  This is very nice for the dodge build.

Another thought - go da.  Favor item choice is up to you.  Perhaps be cautious at the start and farm by a tower to hit level 2 or so.  Go back and buy the assassins foot guards.  When you hit level 2, put a point into evasion.  This brings you up to 15% dodge VERY quickly. Figure the rest out.

From some quick tests in filthy rich games, you can VERY quickly level up dodge.  Buy the assassins foot guards immediately.  Go to the artifact shop and get all fathers (I did some testing and in a dodge build, this seems to be best on filthy).  That brings you up to 20% dodge immediately.  If you have a general, you can choose the pendant and hit 30% instantly.  Then, save up for cloak to max out at 40%.  If you are a da, you can skip cloak and just buy a level of evasion every time it comes up.  You'll hit 40% in no time. 

Anyway, the trick is not in getting to 40%.  The trick is coming up with a viable build that is effective and uses dodge. 

demigod
15,112 views 35 replies
Reply #1 from Demigod Forums Top

Dodge could be nice choice versus tower-rook. Especially for weak DA. There is a very cheap item for dodge-build in the ideal Demigod, that costs 600...or 1k may be  :bebi:  and it give you only dodge (7, 10, 15 %). Demigod is like a baby... he need to grow up and get more and more new items, favors, DG's  O:)

Reply #2 from Demigod Forums Top

Anyone up for trying this out?

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Reply #3 from Stardock Forums Top

I was looking into this the other day, with miserable results.  Perhaps I expect too much from the Dodge ability?

Anyhow, my build used the Demon Assassin.  Picked up the Assassin's Footguards and leveled the Evasion branch of the skill tree.  It didn't feel like I was avoiding any damage, but it might be because I'm not very good with the DA?

Thanks for the info about the 40% cap on Dodge - didn't know about that.

Reply #4 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting GG_Crew, reply 7
I was looking into this the other day, with miserable results.  Perhaps I expect too much from the Dodge ability?

Anyhow, my build used the Demon Assassin.  Picked up the Assassin's Footguards and leveled the Evasion branch of the skill tree.  It didn't feel like I was avoiding any damage, but it might be because I'm not very good with the DA?

Thanks for the info about the 40% cap on Dodge - didn't know about that.
End of GG_Crew's quote

Thanks for giving it a go.  The lower your dodge % is, the less often you'll dodge (obviously) - and as you NEVER know when it will work or not, you still need a decent amount of HP to make it work.  Its real tricky.  I'm going to keep working at it from time to time and see if I can come up with something. 

Reply #5 from Demigod Forums Top

May be it works on abilities only like fireball, spit, snipe, etc? I remember that after guy from other team bought all father's he avoided some snipes. (..or no?..)  :|

Reply #6 from Demigod Forums Top

Testing:

  • Sedna vs Erb - erb at 40% dodge vs sedna's pounce + silence. 
    • After Many attempts (>25), neither pounce nor silence were dodged.  Dodge does not work on these abilities. 
  • TB vs Erb - erb at 40% dodge vs all of tb's abilities. 
    • After Many attempts (>25), no fire/ice abilities were dodged.
  • DA vs erb - erb at 40% dodge vs warp strike, spine attack, and warp area.  
    • After Many attempts (>25), no da abilities were dodged.

 

So, after testing 3 dg's at random, looks like I'll have to agree eh.  So, the only ability that can be dodged is ub's spit (specifically, the time after each tick occurs in game, its possible to dodge that bit of damage from spit - the effect persists until the timer wears out for spit duration).  As there are other abilities that do damage over time (circle of fire) but cannot be dodge, it makes sense (at least to me) that either dodge SHOULD be applied to all abilities or that the ability to dodge spit ticks is in error. 

At any rate, the viability of dodge is reduced quite a bit if you can still be nuked by all abilities (eg you still must have a good hp stack or an easy escape to use it successfully).  This also makes dodge builds (with reasonable hp) a decent counter to dgs like ub, though (as it impacts his aa damage and his spit damage). 

Anyway, editing the op.  Going to delete some posts, but here you go - thunder and hedgie were right... now go play dow2.  :)

Reply #7 from Demigod Forums Top

I can tell you from a code standpoint that dodge does NOT affect ANY abilities whatsoever.  Nor beam weapons, e.g. ToL or Finger of God.  It dodges auto-attack weapons only.

Dodge is not viable from a build perspective with a 40% cap.  I think a 50% cap, combined with better evasion percentages from DA's ability tree, and improved dodge items (not evasion amounts, but other bonuses, e.g. make Assassin's Footguards slightly better in some other way) that it could be viable.

 

Alternatively/additionally, rebalance all items so that health items are not always the superior solution from a cost-efficiency perspective.

 

Edit: Actually, I think I'm wrong about this.  Looked at BuffAffects.Health, and this is the default damagedata it uses:

Code: c++
  1.     local data = {
  2.         Instigator = instigator,
  3.         InstigatorBp = false,
  4.         InstigatorArmy = instigatorArmy,
  5.         Amount = -healthadj,
  6.         Type = buffDef.Type or 'Spell',
  7.         DamageAction = buffName or 'Unknown',
  8.         Radius = buffDef.DamageRadius or 0,
  9.         DamageSelf = buffDef.DamageSelf or false,
  10.         DamageFriendly = true,
  11.         ArmorImmune = true,
  12.         CanBackfire = true,
  13.         CanCrit = true,
  14.         CanDamageReturn = false,
  15.         CanBeEvaded = true,
  16.         CanOverKill = true,
  17.         Vector = VDiff(instigator:GetPosition(), unit:GetPosition()),
  18.         Group = "UNITS",
  19.     }
Then subsequently, allows the buff to override this:
Code: c++
  1.     if buffDef.CanBeEvaded == false then
  2.         data.CanBeEvaded = false
  3.     end

That.. doesn't seem right to me.  Why would it be ArmorImmune, e.g. ability damage, but evadable by default?  These -health buffs are used for all manner of direct-DoT and self-damage that shouldn't be avoidable: UB's spit and ooze (both self and other damage) for example, and most of the buffs that use this don't seem to set CanBeEvaded to false.

If dodge were overpowered or UB were underpowered, this would be something to change, but neither are the case, so I guess this is just an oddity to be aware of.

 

Edit 2: Looks like the actual evasion check code does disallow dodging self-damage.  So there's that.

Reply #8 from Demigod Forums Top

I tried different dodge builds with da. The only fun part I could have was dodging endless towers and try to steal flags. but fighting wise the dodgesystem is to weak for a character like da. Haven't thought about erebus though.

Reply #9 from Demigod Forums Top

In almost every game I have played,  dodge is only ever good when in combination with an ability that when u dodge u get to use.

Reply #10 from Demigod Forums Top

Tried a dodge erb build in a 2v2 (me laned against an oak).  Didn't end so well for me.  Sadly, I think I was strongest early (dodge + bite did pay off), then mid... but mid/late I was doomed.  DIdn't help that my teammate couldn't hold the hp flag, but the fault was my build at any rate.  Anyway, going to keep taking shots at this.  I really think pendant is a solid item for minion builds, but unfortunately, I wasn't trying to do a minion build.  And when you get assassins footguards + a small hat, there really isn't enough mana for erb. 

Reply #11 from Demigod Forums Top

This disscussion really belongs here so I brought it over if you don't mind hedgie.

Quoting awuffleablehedgie, reply 96
Common Error: "armor has diminishing returns, therefore it sucks as you get more of it".

Fact: "Each point of armor is just as valuable as the last point. Diminishing returns is a math trick with a bad name that makes it sound like it sucks".

 

Let's say you have 10% damage reduction (lets say, 10 armor), and you have the ability to purchase a new item that gives you +10% mitigation (lets say, 10 armor). Without diminishing returns, your armor would increase from 10 to 20, and your mitigation would increase from 10% to 20%.

If before your mitigation was 10%, that means your effective hp was 111% of your max hp (9/10 -> 10/9). Now, since it is 20%, that means your effective hp is 125% of your max hp. (4/5 -> 5/4). So the first 10% of mitigation increased your effective hp by 11%, your second 10% of mitigation increased your effective hp by 14%. What gives?

Now, let's say you have 80% damage reduction (let's say, 80 armor), and you have the ability to purchase a new item that gives you +10% mitigation. Without diminishing returns, your armor increases from 80 to 90, and your mitigation increases from 80% to 90%.

If before your mitigation was 80%, that means your effective hp was 500% of your max hp (1/5 -> 5/1). Now, since it is 90%, that means your effective hp is 1,000% of your max hp (1/10 -> 10/1). So the first 80% of mitigation increases your effective hp by 500%, your last 10% increased your effective hp by 500%. What gives?

Now, you're at 90%, and you get to increase your armor by 10 again. Now you have 100% mitigation. You win.

 

End of awuffleablehedgie's quote

Your right hedgie on the armor being valuable point by point, but from how i understand it dodge works how you just explained there in your reason for DR. Its not effective HP that is linearly increasing like in armor but the actual mitigation % so your effective HP is exponential vs the base attack. I don't know i could be totally wrong, im sure im not as good at math as you.

 My main argument though is that because of the damage reduction of armor,bulwark, and aclimation i think the dodge cap should be a soft cap. I mean UB has the current dodge cap effectively in 4 skill points. Bulwark has the cap capped by 20% on its own. With a soft cap you could get up to 55% with any character, 70% with DA, and 75% with Ereb theoretically (thats being at 30% hp or below). Tell me if im just plain wrong or if this would be super OP or something. I think it would be hilariously awesome to see a guy actually commit to a dodge build and be able to use the items effectivly. It would for sure open the game up to more builds and make a couple items viable in some cases.

Reply #12 from Demigod Forums Top

The reason that e.g. 15% dodge is less desirable than 15% armor is because evasion is very unpredictable.  Against another demigod, where you might only take 7-10 hits to die, the chance to block one, or maybe two of those offered by 15% dodge isn't nearly as practical as the absolute assurance that you can take one more offered by 15% armor.

Against archer towers, creeps, minions, etc-- any situation where the hit quantity is high-- dodge is equally effective and reliable.  But because of how low the cap is, and because armor is generally more affordable and is available in conjunction with significant health boosts, there's no question which is a better choice.

 

Then there's the relationship between health, damage reduction, and armor.  Which is stilted even further in favor of raw health and damage reduction, because both of those synergize with every other available means of boosting EHP (including armor and evasion).

Reply #13 from Stardock Forums Top

The reason that e.g. 15% dodge is less desirable than 15% armor is because evasion is very unpredictable.
End of quote

Indeed.  Evasion is a great secondary to damage mitigation.  The only real way that dodge becomes a super useful ability would be if it worked on abilities.  That would instantly increase the viability of dodge.  That's not going to happen, though, soooo... I still think there are some yet to be used builds that will capitalize on it as is, but in a 3v3 battle, your dg will likely have a bit less health than others, so you'll be taking the majority of abilities nukes... which means that, even though you could dodge a bit of aa damage, you will still likely be forced to sigil/retreat.  I'd think orb could offset this some by casting just after you've drawn some of the nukes, but still.

I actually don't think raising the dodge cap would help substantially or make it more viable.  The only possible objection to that would likely be in filthy rich games, were you start with more money out the gate. 

Reply #14 from Demigod Forums Top

Your right hedgie on the armor being valuable point by point, but from how i understand it dodge works how you just explained there in your reason for DR. Its not effective HP that is linearly increasing like in armor but the actual mitigation % so your effective HP is exponential vs the base attack. I don't know i could be totally wrong, im sure im not as good at math as you.
End of quote

Dodge confers exactly the same mitigation values as armor, as long as you have sufficient armor to never drop below 0% (Bite, Ground Spikes). This is because if you drop below 0% armor, you take massive bonus damage due to the formula demigod uses. 

In fact, point-for-point, dodge is better than armor because Dodge doesn't have DR. However, due to the mechanics of the game (the major sources of damage, abilities, is not dodgeable, and armor pieces that have dodge typically have very little HP), dodge is not something you can economically get without incurring too heavy of an opportunity cost (in skill points, or money that could have gone towards health items instead). 

The reason that e.g. 15% dodge is less desirable than 15% armor is because evasion is very unpredictable.  Against another demigod, where you might only take 7-10 hits to die, the chance to block one, or maybe two of those offered by 15% dodge isn't nearly as practical as the absolute assurance that you can take one more offered by 15% armor.
End of quote
 

Patently false. Evasion is unpredictable but there is no difference between 10% armor mitigation and 10% dodge in terms of "average" lifespan. It ultimately comes down to playstyle, if and only if armor and dodge were equally difficult to acquire. Dodge is a "feeling lucky punk?" stat, but that doesn't make it inferior, just risky. Additionally, if you have dodge are also screwing up with your opponent's mind.

I know that you said afterwards that against high rate-of-fire targets the difference is minimized but you're still misrepresenting the situation, saying that you might get unlucky and die, whereas getting unlucky and dieing is just as possible as getting lucky and winning assuming a perfectly even fight. 

If dodge and armor were equally difficult to get (again, not the case since very few dodge items provide health and are usually more expensive), since dodge doesn't have DR, everyone would stack dodge. If the items were rebalanced, and dodge was given a DR, rather than just a hard cap, then you would want to have exactly half dodge, and half armor. 

Let's say you have a 50% mitigation "budget". You could do 50% armor, or 50% dodge, or 25% armor, 25% dodge, or 10% armor, 40% dodge, or 40% armor, 10% dodge. 

1) 50% Armor gives you 50% mitigation, 200% effective hp 

2) 50% Dodge gives you 50% mitigation, 200% effective hp

3) 25% Dodge, 25% Armor gives you 1.25 * 1.25 == 56.25% mitigation, 228.57% effective hp

4) 10% Armor, 40% Dodge gives you 1.1 * 1.4 == 54% mitigation, 217.39% effective hp

5) 40% Dodge, 10% Armor gives you 1.1 * 1.4 == 54% mitigation, 217.39% effective hp

 

As dodge is currently implemented and itemized, in order for it to be effective, it probably would have to dodge abilities as well (probably dodge % against abilities would be halved, for balance). If dodged were itemized like armor, and found on easily accessible hp items then dodge would be awesome (see above). So awesome it would have to be nerfed and DR'd.

Reply #15 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting OMG_pacov, reply 13

I actually don't think raising the dodge cap would help substantially or make it more viable.  The only possible objection to that would likely be in filthy rich games, were you start with more money out the gate. 
End of OMG_pacov's quote

I think it would. Take DA for instance. 15% at lvl 10 + Assassin's Foot Guards + Cloak of Elfinkind = 40%. Currently that is the cap. That makes desparate boots worthless. But if you had a soft cap you would have 60% mitigation at 30% hp or less. That is a massive jump if you are being chased deep into towers or teamates. when you conisider sigils you would be able to easily have a huge swing considering the fact that you would have more time to be close to death and still have time to sigil. It would also allow a DA to not be so completely worthless against a tower rook in team battles. the price of 18750 for the package puts it in reach. Also when you consider the movement speed and escapablilty cloak affords i think this build would be viable at a regular 3v3 late game price.  The final 10% in a soft cap is all fathers which for the price is obviously not worth it, but could be funny in filthy rich games. The cap of 40% is just too weak imo when put up against the current armor items alowed, and considering that there are not enough dodge items to get to even 80% dodge why not make it a soft cap?

Reply #16 from Demigod Forums Top

come play again max - been too long.  (I'll actually read your reply in little bit.. game time) :)

Reply #17 from Demigod Forums Top

In the case of 7 shots for a kill, 15% dodge is FAR less reliable than the same percentage of armor, because the latter absolutely insures an extra hit, while it's quite likely that a 15% dodge chance will not activate at all.  Or may activate twice, or even three times.  That is not reliable, by any definition that I'm aware of.

In the case of one hundred shots for a kill, you're right, there is absolutely no difference between the same two percentages.  Therefore, against creeps and arrow towers, evasion is perfectly reliable.

However, you can't dodge some AE melee damage, nor can you dodge ToL damage.  Both of these are -always- mitigated by armor DR.

Quoting Maxsteel32, reply 15
why not make it a soft cap?
End of Maxsteel32's quote

To make it work with the buff system and to make it somewhat understandable, evasion would need to be turned into a point system exactly like armor.  I would be ok with this, but it would require some rebalancing of evasion items, and it would require that evasion be displayed in the UI so you can tell the actual percent you've got at a glance.

Reply #18 from Demigod Forums Top

The reason that e.g. 15% dodge is less desirable...
End of quote

I was contesting this point. Against small samples sizes, it is not going to be consistent, as I put here

I know that you said afterwards that against high rate-of-fire targets the difference is minimized but you're still misrepresenting the situation, saying that you might get unlucky and die, whereas getting unlucky and dieing is just as possible as getting lucky and winning assuming a perfectly even fight.
End of quote

It's less desirable to YOU because the inconsistent nature of small numbers of attacks and that makes you feel uncomfortable. For some people, that is desirable. I'm saying that, mathematically, they are identical assuming that they mitigated the same things and were equally easible to attain. This is obviously not true.

All my discussion has had those assumptions in place because I'm making abstract theoretical discussions. The fact of the matter is that dodge sucks in demigod, and the only time it's really worth it is DA end-game, and Erebus' level 15 mist skill. Which is pretty much how I end all my posts.

Reply #19 from Demigod Forums Top

Right, ok, we're mostly in agreement then.  I don't really know how to 'fix' dodge except to fully or partially lift the cap, and make it something you can specialize in, like armor.  And again, while health is still as easy to come by as it is, neither armor nor dodge will ever be attractive enough vs health.  Not that you want to roll with base armor, ever, but you know what I mean.

Reply #20 from Demigod Forums Top

actually, I think the best change for dodge is to make it count on abilities.  Even at a 70% dodge rate, against nuker dgs, the dodge build becomes a bit useless in normal money games.  Without huge ability nukes, its more viable.  As it stands, its what... an ok counter to a ub or perhaps an aa reg?  Anyway, I do find it strange that the dodge mechanic isn't applied across abilities.  If I can dodge an arrow... I could probably dodge a snipe once in awhile. 

Reply #21 from Demigod Forums Top

Abilities concentrate a lot of damage in one hit.  Being able to dodge those anywhere near half the time would be really, really effective.  That would be a huge shift in the game's balance, and would make dodge too desirable.

 

Now, maybe one could come up with a short list of abilities that could be made evadable, since that's fairly easy to do, and wouldn't radically change the nature of the game.  Snipe would not be a good candidate though, as it's already mediocre and needs no further disincentivization.

Reply #22 from Demigod Forums Top

You wouldn't want to evade interrupts, if we were doing it skill-by-skill. AoE attacks don't really make (logical) sense, but it's also the least inbalanced thing to dodge. 

A better way to do it, in my opinion, is to make "ability dodge" a certain % chance of your "autoattack dodge". I know that this is an obfuscation but remembering a ability:autoattack ratio may be easier than remembering what attacks can and cannot be dodged. 

I'd suggest a 3:1 ratio. That is, with 15% dodge you'd have a 5% chance to dodge abilities. I think that's pretty powerful without being insane, espiecially when you consider desperate boots (which would now have an iconic name). 

Reply #23 from Demigod Forums Top

Quoting miriyaka, reply 17
In the case of 7 shots for a kill, 15% dodge is FAR less reliable than the same
To make it work with the buff system and to make it somewhat understandable, evasion would need to be turned into a point system exactly like armor.  I would be ok with this, but it would require some rebalancing of evasion items, and it would require that evasion be displayed in the UI so you can tell the actual percent you've got at a glance.
End of miriyaka's quote

then you would just have armor with a different name on it, and less reliable at that so it would be pointless you might as well throw dodge out of the game...... it pretty much already is right now.

The point of dodge imo is to have the same out come as armor from a different angle. you can either go for the guaranteed mitigation of actual armor or live more by the seat of your pants with dodge. Also i think the lack of DR with dodge is what makes it more appealing late game. Its a little more expesive at low lvl but pays off bigger late game. (assuming the cap were removed)

Quoting OMG_pacov, reply 20
actually, I think the best change for dodge is to make it count on abilities.  Even at a 70% dodge rate, against nuker dgs, the dodge build becomes a bit useless in normal money games.  Without huge ability nukes, its more viable.  As it stands, its what... an ok counter to a ub or perhaps an aa reg?  Anyway, I do find it strange that the dodge mechanic isn't applied across abilities.  If I can dodge an arrow... I could probably dodge a snipe once in awhile. 
End of OMG_pacov's quote

I could see this working but then you would have to keep the cap at 40% as a soft cap and this would be super op. What I was arguing for was basically to give a different type of "armor" as armor does not mitigate any ability damage anyway. The thing is i guess the items that up armor almost always carry HP boosts as well where as you would only get a boost of 400 hp from all the current dodge items, minus all fathers of course. the other thing is though you know allot of people would be SOOOOOO pissed when you dodge their fireball and get away or even better end up dodging both parts of a slam/snipe combo ftw. Base attacks im sure would be a little less controversial.

I think also it would be viable against more than just UB and aa reg. Tower rook, any minion build, it would for sure help DA stay in heavy grunt lanes and or push towers. I think it just needs a little push to become a viable option where as right now its not. I mean yeah you have low hp but the only way to kill against allot of evade is to use powers. Thats a pretty good balance i think. I mean if you hold back and the other team knows that if they spam their powers on your teamates you will be able to come in after the burst and take almost no damage so maybe they hold powers and your teamates are able to wail on them untill you get into the battle. Or if you go in first you draw the attantion, a good orbing could do wonders for your team. Also getting cloak as part of your actual build and not some late game toy is going to be awesome for your base speed, tower diving and gank abilities come mid to late game. Its just a different way of playing the game that i think could possibly give a new dynamic to DG. I could be wrong, dodge even at 60% it might not do enough without being able to dodge powers aswell. Maybe some dodge items need to be boosted by hp like armor items already are. Maybe cloak should be swtiched to adding 750 hp instead of armor since dodge is essencially armor itself. For 5k desparate boots could for sure use a boost in the hp department. You get more from unbreakable boots for a fraction of the cost, and with the cap at 40% dodge this item is currently completely worthless.

Quoting OMG_pacov, reply 16
come play again max - been too long.
End of OMG_pacov's quote

agreed, but so far I only have internet at work and this is their computer. Soon i hope to get a computer and internet at my apartment that will be good enough to play on. I don't know how bad my ping is going to be to you guys though. Its quite literally the other side of the world from the east coast.

Reply #24 from Demigod Forums Top

Right now, abilities are a 'sure thing' where you can count on an exact amount of damage when you use one.  This is good, because you have to spend mana to use them.  Even a small chance to dodge most of them would be extremely frustrating and would reduce confidence in ability use in general.  So unless you can argue for specific abilities that you think should be evadable, and why, I don't see it working at all, nevermind being accepted by what remains of the player base.

 

Re: Max

There is no way to do a 'soft cap' other than using the same system as armor, where each point of evasion gives you the same relative percent of dodge.

If this were implemented with the same formula as armor (only modifying AA evasion chance instead of AA DR), you would give items that currently have 10% evasion something like ~500 dodge points, or 16.7% evasion chance, so a net boost to begin with.  Adding another of those items for 1000 dodge points would still give you a +16.7% improvement over your current chance to dodge, but only an absolute 28.5% chance.  So each 500 point item would be just as useful as the last, just like each 500 point armor item is just as useful as the last, you're still ahead of where you would be with two flat 10% dodge items, AND you don't have to worry about having 'too many' dodge items and hitting a cap or becoming unhittable.

Let's face it - one 10% dodge item does jack shit right now.  It's never worth taking.  If that same item did 15-20%, suddenly it becomes a consideration.  But you can't just boost those percents directly without four such items making you almost unhittable by AA (60-80% dodge) or without hitting a reasonable hard cap with the third item.

 

For reference, here's how the point system would relate to the current absolute amounts (same as armor):

500 = 16.7%
1000 = 28.5%
1500 = 37.5%
2000 = 44.4%
2500 = 50%
3000 = 54.5%
3500 = 58.3%
4000 = 61.5%
4500 = 64.3%
5000 = 66.7%

As with armor, this system would let you push the percentages beyond the current cap without becoming unhittable.  It would also allow a potentially greater amount of relative evasion per item (say 1500 points or +37.5% relative for Cloak of Elfinkind), and would let more items with more evasion amount exist without either rendering some of them useless (already past cap) or too powerful (no cap).

 

The only drawbacks of this are:
1) No instant visual confirmation on percent, but if you've learned how armor works, you already know how these points work.
2) Becomes highly desirable to have at least one evasion item.  Actually less of a problem than armor, because evasion items don't also have health and are currently rather worthless.

Reply #25 from Stardock Forums Top

Abilities concentrate a lot of damage in one hit. Being able to dodge those anywhere near half the time would be really, really effective. That would be a huge shift in the game's balance, and would make dodge too desirable.
End of quote

or justifiable to actually get it...