Sovereign/Race Creation Points & game balancing

Hey y'all!

In a response to an earlier thread today (r.e. Warstaffs and the fact that they have been removed from 1.09p Sovereign creation apparently), I ended up sidetracking into a discussion of getting the 'Knowledge' trait for 10 points (1 tech per turn), versus spending those same 10 creation points on padded armor (2 defense), or spending 5 points on Wealthy (1 gildar per turn), and accumulating the 32 gildar for said padded armor instead, with 5 creation points spent elsewhere to boot.

In checking out the 1.09p creation window, I've noted a few things:

1) That currently only Men (and no other 'races') are allowed Traveling and Longstrider boots during Character Creation - what's up with that?

2) That in the midst of removing the Warstaff (good move IMHO), some changes were made to the weapons costs: Club now only takes 1 Character Point, and Staff now takes 2.

 

3) This is a long one:

It seems to me that the various costs for Armor need to be reduced, similar to the weapons above.  I'd suggest the rule of thumb of 1 CP per approximately 12 gildar in cost.  I'd also suggest that unused Character points be traded in for Gildar, at the 12 (or so) Gildar per CP rate (so if you trade in all 50 points, you'd get 600 extra gildar at start).

The armor purchase costs in the shop are currently in a state of flux (the Stardock guys are rebalancing things), hence my suggestion for the 'standard'. 

If you wanted to make it more fancy, the 'Tech Level' of said weapon could multiply the CP cost by some amount: i.e. Leather Cuirass shows up down the tech tree a bit, so it should cost more CP than the Gildar cost alone would suggest, to reflect the rarity of said item.

spending 36 Character points for 6 points of armor protection just seems waaaaay to expensive.  Especially if you instead go for the 'War Machine' trait for your custom race (using 2 of your 10 race points), which makes some armor available in the 'shop' for purchase.  I'm sure Derek and the guys have noticed this as well, and may address it eventually (not a priority at the moment, as they are on a bugslaying hunt).

 

I like the idea that your Sovereign finds some rare sword or suit of armor, or has it handed down as a family heirloom, as long as the CP cost isn't so high that you are really better off buying some trait instead.  Also, if said Sword or Armor were 'unique', i.e. not something you could research in one or two hops, that'd be cool!

Example: Your grandfather gives you the Chainmail Shirt that's been in the family for generations.  Or, a Longsword...

Both of the above items are a little down the tech tree (at least 30-40 turns down the road if you focused on weapons), not like staffs which are available 'right out of the gate'.  Also, while they will probably get traded in eventually, they will be useful to you for a good part of the early game.  A padded cuirass, on the other hand, becomes obsolete fairly quickly.

Another idea is to go the rings/amulet/cloak route for protection.  Soldier's/Traveler's Cloaks are generally something you use for the entire game, so getting one at the start will be a lot more useful than a padded cuirass.  Also, a ring/amulet of protection +1, speed +1, or move +1 is another item you'll likely keep using for a long time.

The jist here is that Character Points you spend on equipment should have a lasting value, similar to the various other traits you may choose during creation.  Staffs and padded armor will be replaced fairly quickly ingame.  A ring may be with you the entire game, similar to the 'bonus' attributes.  Wealthy is +1 gildar every turn for the many (300+)  turns of your game.

Also, it'd be nice if the 'starting items' could be passed down.  So that chain shirt I just mentioned, if you could give that to Janusk when you find the Armor of Azor, that'd make it a little more useful.  And if that chain shirt was unique, such as it provided 1 more protection than your run of the mill chain shirt...

I'm not suggesting that something UBER should be available right off.  6 Defense in the early game, or a weapon with a 6-9 attack, is probably about the most a Sovereign should start with.  And the 9 attack spear is debatable - wolves, bandits, and swarm spiders die quickly against guys using said spear.  A Sovereign or Hero with a 6 Def AND a 9 Attack on the warpath will dominate most combats the first few turns.

What I am suggesting is that the mentioned 6 Defense should be from one or two items (Breastplate, Cloak), not a bunch of 1 point armor sections that you'll be tossing at the first opportunity.  And, as I stated before, not cost 36 CP...

Plus, cloaks, amulets and rings don't mess up the custom outfit you spent a few minutes on during creation,  for those who like to look fashionable out in the wastelands!

Now, if you could pick your outfit, then assign a defense value to one piece of it - say, +4 defensive magic is weaved into to the vest you've chosen, then you wouldn't have to be caught dead in padded leather... That might get a little too complex though (rings are easier).

I'd suggest the 'books' you find on the road (Defense of Fools, etc.), but that's just another way to modify attack and defense directly, which incidentally were removed from character creation (now you can only modify Str and Dex).

 

4) As for the CP value of the various point generation traits (Wealthy, Attunement, etc.), these seem OK to me (i.e. not too unreasonable). Specifics:

10 CP for the +1 to tech every turn doesn't seem excessive to me. 

10 CP for +1 to Arcane every turn, seems about right, although spell research seems a little slow currently.  25 turns for a level 1 spell at said +1 per turn.  Really?

5 CP for +1 go Gildar every turn also seems about right. 

5 CP for +2 Mana per turn, hmmm dunno yet.

5 CP for +2 Food per turn.  Probably a bargain but 10 seems excessive.  Plus, once food production kicks into high gear, this isn't as big of a deal.

 

That'll do for now, to get this discussion rolling.

 

 

 

3,776 views 3 replies
Reply #1 Top

the mana one is looking rather dubious. that's essentially the equivalent of running two free enchants or summons through the entire game. the only reason it's not currently a gamewinner is because there are no spells capable of dealing significant damage beyond the early game (except touch of entropy)

Reply #2 Top

Quoting tjashen,
 

Hey y'all!

In a response to an earlier thread today (r.e. Warstaffs and the fact that they have been removed from 1.09p Sovereign creation apparently), I ended up sidetracking into a discussion of getting the 'Knowledge' trait for 10 points (1 tech per turn), versus spending those same 10 creation points on padded armor (2 defense), or spending 5 points on Wealthy (1 gildar per turn), and accumulating the 32 gildar for said padded armor instead, with 5 creation points spent elsewhere to boot.

End of tjashen's quote

  • I've found that Not spending those 10 points on the +1 tech stat or on any equipment of any kind to be a good thing. The reason being, hiring 1 Hero with the Research skill gives you that +1 to research. While equipment can all be purchased with gilder soon as you have the funds & the item is available for sale. True, all the good stuff needs to be researched 1st, but you can technically let your rivals research them and simply buy the item in question from there shop once its available. But bear in mind I say this because I am a die hard evil power hungry Soveriegn bent on world domination via MAGIC. ^^ So I'm very biased in this respect. Though, in all honesty, if my Empire faction custum Sovereign could wear those boots... I'd be sorely tempted to get them.

Plus, cloaks, amulets and rings don't mess up the custom outfit you spent a few minutes on during creation,  for those who like to look fashionable out in the wastelands!

Now, if you could pick your outfit, then assign a defense value to one piece of it - say, +4 defensive magic is weaved into to the vest you've chosen, then you wouldn't have to be caught dead in padded leather... That might get a little too complex though (rings are easier).
End of quote

  • Dude! That would be an awesome addition to the game for those of us who feel that style is an important part of function ^^ Most games I play tend to see me avoide all the bulky 'peasant' garb for as long as possible. Aslo it would allow more varied customization for the hero's that are recruited. By mid/end game; having all my heros similar in apearance, except for colouring in some cases, to be rather drab. I especially feel a creative need to make my Imbued Channelers have that unique style to suit my dark Chaos worshipping Empire more satisfactorily. Even expand on the idea somewhat more by building in a cloak design editor for quick in game styles that can be whipped up with pregenerated symbol templates or even a free hand brush. While I'm at it, I'll add a custom faction coat of arms generator to this wish list. Something simple yet varied enough that many people would have unique faction art. Of course, policing people making inapropraite logos would probably become a full time job during multiplayer matchs. Getting carried away here... I like this idea alot.
  •  K.I.S.S would be more manageable (Keep it simple stupid & before you ask; yes, I do have a KISS army membership card fom my teenage years) A simple 3 colour pallette with 3 preselected symbols to mix & match for a bare minimum coat of arms generator.

 

5 CP for +2 Mana per turn, hmmm dunno yet. 
End of quote

  • Hands down for any spell casting nutts out there this is a must. BIG:troll: BADAx_x BOOM You can never have to much mana in my opinion. . Especially since now you have a mana pool that is drawn from by all your channelers should you decide to imbue the better candidates.
  • Also, as per original Dynasty tables, your children have the chance to have 1 of the parents set of abilites. I havn't been lucky yet finding a spouse worthy of being chosen from my available hero finds so far in 2 short games testing out some diplo stuff. Hope to find 1 early on in a large Rediculous run later to see if that ability transfers to children.
  • Pretty much though it boils down to playstyle, cold hard enchanted steel or boiling your enemies blood in their viens. hehe For myself, if there was a 10 point +5 to mana pool generation well then, I might try to squeeze it in somehow.

   One talent i would like to see offered in character creation for our custum Sov is Organized, the abilty for all units in the soveriegns stack to move at thier movement rate. Making it mandatory to pick one of the more disadvantageous negative talents would be more than fair. ^^ My Sov generaly has Insane allready since it's such a nice touch for a twisted power mad leader bent on total domination.

   Well ahve fun guys, gotta finish the sunday work day before I get to play again. grrrrr

Reply #3 Top

I still think that Sovereigns should all get Starting Gold (with the 'Rich' trait giving them a bonus to starting gold as well as to gold earned in game.)


Then Sovereigns should buy equipment with Starting Gold, NOT with CP.

It's a silly system as is, and I always leave my sov without equipment, immediately research warfare, then deck him out with good equipment. I can do this several turns before ever running into monsters or enemy sovs, and I wouldn't cripple my sov by spending 10 or 20 points that I could spend on attributes and magic on a spear and a breastplate.

It's not very useful.