"Monster Economy" ruins economy balance - multiple balanced ways to earn money preferable?

Hmmm, maybe an increase in resource costs for things and what cities generate to make it balance out....or have monsters drop items instead?

boo to that.  monsters are the only way to get the massive amount of gold needed to properly outfit champions, and even constant monster hunting is not enough to get more than mediocre stuff.  

But an improved city economy would be GREAT.  taxes?  anyone?  if you want to live in my nice city rather than out in the dangerous wilderness then you have to pay TAXES!  how hard is that?  1 gold per 25 citizens seems fair.

but that just means you have two paralell economies. if you're playing the adventure game it's barely enough, but if you're playing the unit/conquest/strategy game it's way too much. the two need to be brought into line.

Monsters need to give less gildars but some interesting loots.

Not all monster types should carry coin. Humanoid monsters I'd be fine with, but wolves and what not, should not be able to carry coin at all.

Now in the early campaign there's a spider lair. If Monsters of all sorts had lairs from which they spawned, then I would suggest no monsters should have coin on them unless your Sov or army is assaulting a lair.

I think that "Adventuring" has always paid well in all fantasy games.  There simply is no better way to make huge amounts of cash than find monsters lairs and take their cash.  I find this in all forms of fantasy game play.  I remember in a pen and paper game of rolemaster many many years ago I once handed a bunch of NPC elvish refugees enough gold to build a new town.  Elemental seems a lot like that.  The wealth of an ancient civilization was scattered all over the world - humanity was almost wiped out in the war with the Titans, the only thing out there in the wilds are the monsters and it's a well known fact that monsters LOVE the SHINNY stuff.    So the wealth of the world has been redistributed to the Monsters - you want it back - go get it back. 

I understand that you want to play the game as a civilization builder not an adventuring game.  I don't understand how the monsters having gold hurts you?  you make it sound like you have a plan for civilization all worked out (and you're doing well with 10 cities by the way) and having your army kill a bunch of marauding trolls and redistribute some wealth into your civilization is a bad thing?  Like the accountants have gone on strike?

I agree that it may not be "balanced" - I agree that cities should create a little more wealth - Tax settings would be good.  But I think that "balancing" a game so that no matter how you play it you get the same rewards doesn't work.  I love outfitting a bunch of adventurers - with one of my kids in the lead, and having them go questing to support the kingdom and see what they can uncover.  Personally - I feel that it makes sense to do that as it is part of the game and the fact that the wealth is out there in the hands of monsters makes perfect sense in that game setting.

I personally have a lot more trouble with FOOD.  Bring back the sovereign ability to fertilize land that they had in the beta.  It cost essence.  so you wouldn't want to do it too often but the odd extra fertile land tile at the cost of some essence would bring a balance to the game that isn't there at the moment. 

I would prefer this problem be addressed by better balancing the cost of champions' equipment upgrades against the cost of squads of guys using the same equipment.  I'd almost prefer that champions just get to use whatever your best current tech allows for.

Of course, this thread is more about economy and not champions.  I do find it a little silly that the best source of revenue throughout the game is to station a few units around forested tiles to absorb the waves of trash monsters spawning therein.  Why are the undeveloped forested portions outside my empire more lucrative than the gold mine next to my capital?  I want to try and keep track, some time soon, how much money I make from killing creep versus traditional economy.

I'd agree with that -  in Beta there were a lot of lairs,  when you killed the lair there were less monsters of that type in that area.  Monsters who would not like gold -  wolves spiders - should maybe have less or no gold - unless you attack their lair -  then you find all the gold etc that their prey - other humans - was carrying and in killing their lair you reduce the amount of monsters in that area.  You might say you have reclaimed it from the wild at least for a while.  That would make caravan routes a lot safer.  as you could clear the lairs between two cities and expect safe caravans for a while - if the lairs start to re grow as more monsters move into that unoccupied territory then you kill them again.

Hrmmmn...

Well, I have gotten 600gildar from long lost forgotten ruins recently rediscovered by my trusty scholars.  I have yet to get that much from wandering critters in the wastes... maybe 150 ish

I really do like the wandering critters as well as the ruins and lost towers, etc,.  

For me the money hasn't really been that much help... perhaps you could bump up your difficulty level?

wolves and what not are not "carrying" coin, rather you are given an amount of gold equal to the value of their hides.  the creature descriptions occasionally describe this...

edit: i think it is really funny that this "discussion" has continued since the time of the original nintendo.  lol

I am also for making monsters drop items for adventurers rather than money or anything else for cities/armies. That would be a simple way of rewarding adventuring types without ruining things for army/city types.

Besides the above.. it is not hard to imagine a bounty being paid for ridding the local nobles/merchants of these pests... as to cities making all the cash, elemental is supposed to  the early formations of civilizations.. which also explains why monsters tend to run amok in the wild we are taming the world as we rediscover lost tech and relearn to be civilized again..

A simple but elegant solution. If a noticeable proportion of the reward for killing monsters was in items which were only really useful for adverturers then the problem you describe dramatically reduces.

Another thing we need to keep in mind... counting on this to raise gold is not a good idea.. this ties up at least one group of heroes or an army or two.. Once the AI or when MP is up comes after you to continue to to this forces you to divide your forces.. Once we see some AI tweaks/reworking this may be something we do less of or at least do at our own risk.

Thing is, you could just sell those items for gold - a lot of gold, remember how absurdly valuable champion gear is compared to what cities can generate? That's the whole problem, monsters have to drop tons of gold, or items worth tons of gold, else how would you ever outfit a champion? First reduce monster gold drops/cost of champion gear to be on the same scale as city gold generation and building/training costs. Then you can replace monster gold drops with equally valuable items if you like, it wouldn't hurt - more believable for a spider to drop a breastplate from a guy he ate than a sack of gold, I suppose - but in the end you'll probably end up selling most of the items and buying the best ones the shop has.

Plus trained unit gear should depend less on gold and more on materials/metal/crystal, there just isn't much demand for that stuff currently, gold is usually the bottleneck. You are supposed to be producing that gear yourself after all, not buying it out of a shop - but that's another discussion.

I think they should drop money so that you can help finance your empire through active adventuring - it adds another decision/element. The amount dropped just needs to be scaled back pretty dramatically.

I like it, actually. It's one way to make sieges effective. If you're under attack and can't leave your cities, you can't wander around fighting monsters to build up more gold, soyou're taking an economic hit that way.

It's kind of strange to make more money from killing things then from gold mines, but it seems to work.

The amount dropped is 1 gold per CR (combat rating?)  of the army that you fight.  600 gold for a 600 army isn't a lot.  most beasties in a stack with a cr of 600 can kill a hero in one hit and there goes all the heroes gear.  Unless you fight tactical battles every single time you fight you are going to lose high level units and heroes fighting that sort of battle.

I'd be far more in favor of decreasing the amount of monsters so less combat = less gold - but when you do fight becasue it's not 5 times a turn you could use tactical combat to limit the amount of losses you take.

The lair system would work for that.  Kill the lair the monsters stop spawning for a good while.  less spawns -  less combat - less gold.

Monsters should carry loot, and less Gildars.

Gold mines should bring you a LOT more money also.

I agree my current game has way too many monsters, but without these monsters I would be screwed as my cities are barely making any gold.

Maybe an option to try to bribe the monsters to get them in your armies ? Would be a fine addition and allow you ta have new troops you cant produce. ?

Or include lairs and give the player the choice between enlisting/domesticating the inhabitants of defeated lairs or to raze the lairs (I think the idea came up in beta).

Then we can destroy the lairs for money (prestige or diplomatic capital maybe?) or we can recruit the monsters for extra power but perhaps a loss (money, population, reputation and so on).

Adventuring/champions should be a viable strategy for those that do not want a large kingdom/empire.

regards,

ct

In relation to what?  In relation to your economy, it's about 25 turns worth - as the OP pointed out.  That's ridiculous.

hunting monsters is part of the game...albeit a tedious and repetitive part at present.  it is like you people are saying, "I don't see why I have to use the 'fire' button just because this is a first person shooter."  just like in the days of Final Fantasy or Dragon Warrior(as well as even earlier games of the fantasy/rpg genre).    Killing monsters is THE way to make money.  except now you get to build a kingdom too!  deal with it or go play something else.  it sounds like civilization is right up your alley.

Damn,i was going to sell my body...

Ah another angry person... May i remember you that it's a discussion forum so you can keep your stupid statements for yourself.

Thx kid.