No Random Map (was: "This is horrible!")

You're not the only one! See the "Maps not Random" discussion that was moved to the Elemental Support forum.

IF true, that IS disappointing. 

But seeing as I've not been able to play yet (at work), I'll reserve final judgement.  I find it hard to believe that they'd have that few maps even if only semi-random. 

Anyone else see this?

Im sure it will be resolved soon, relax a little guys.

Read Frogboy's response in the Support forum. It was a design choice.

This is only Pre-Day Zero version..Calm down a bit.

https://forums.elementalgame.com/391291

Thanks Kazroth!

Sounds like they need a lot more random map seeds.  Froggie said in a journal that they had fully random maps but it took an absolute age to load and so they use 'seeds' (basic shapes) and randomise from there.

Can't comment much though as I'm not currectly playing (will get hung drawn and quartered if I download that big a file so will have to wait for the box).

So it's Heroes Random Map Generator style? Everybody gets equal amount of resorces and artifacts and map is logically symmetric?

They found in beta that the game started way too slowly with totally random resource allocation. You needed some basic resources just to get a town started. So yeah, the code is evenly distributing good stuff, which has a large impact on how the game plays.

The symmetry just goes toward not having enough interesting seeds.

Just to remind you that we have built in the ability for other users to create their own maps and share them with others directly from the game, so if you get bored with the included ones then there should be a healthy supply of alternatives.

While I am waiting for my download to complete (impulse seems to be capping me at 105KB/s ...), can someone explain to me the current limitation of the map generator using civ iv as an example? Is it like being limited to only pangea maps?

If I understand it right, in Civ 4 terms you have the same map shapes - continents, forests, mountains, etc. but the resources and goodies are what is randomized.

No, in Civ 4 more than the goodies and resources were randomized.  You would select a map type, such as "Archipelago" or "Great Plains" or "Inland Sea" and then you would select settings to further define the map, such as the climate and the how much water would be on the map.  Then it would generate a landmass that was actually different every time.  I don't remember ever getting the same map, even with all the settings the same.

I would love to hear that Elemental will be like this, too.  Not knowing where the mountain ranges or forests are ahead of time is what the "exploration" X of the 4X genre is all about, in my opinion.  It's not just about having different goodies and resources and quests and a different starting location.  I think the OP was concerned more with the geographic features of the map, and not the allocation of resources.

I've been playing Civ IV since the game came out. I've never encountered a map that seemed even similar and certainly not the exact same as the one before. We're talking what, 5 years of playing and never have a deja vu feeling. So Elemental doesn't have a random (or perceived random) map generator at all. It's just a set of maps the game selects?

Civ IV's maps aren't perfectly balanced, so why do Elemental's have to?  If we're playing a single player game, we can start a new game or add more AI opponents if the first maps aren't optimal.

Best regards,
Steven. 

Civ IV has a balanced option though, in terms of resources, but the maps are still pretty random. I know it's not a "true" random, but the perception is certainly there.

Currently, only the resources are random. Everything else is fixed (shape of the continent, position of landscape (woods, mountains), starting locations (you don't always start at the same location but the locations themselves seem fixed)).

Note that there are a couple of maps, so you won't get the same map *always*. But as I said, it only took me four tries to get a repetition.

Also, not only the mountain ranges or forests should be random but also the shape of the map. As it stands, after a while I will always know that, e.g., "to the east, there are two more empires and if I rush to the west, I can occupy a strategic choking point."

Neil: I appreciate the fact that user created maps can be imported easily, but let's face it: Many of those maps will be bad or built in order to have an interesting effect or situation. Only a few will be simple standard maps. So I'd rather have random maps, thank you. Plus, I assume we will be able to look at the maps before downloading it, which kind of defeats the purpose of having an unknown map.

Sorry, double post.

Some of Civ 4's map scripts have patterns in how they do things. I use Fractal a lot in my coop games, and I know that with our settings we always get put on the larger continent, on one side of it. But I don't know "head W and there's a choke by a mountain to block everybody else off". Plus there's options like climate and water level that can further alter things.

And if I get bored of that map script, there's quite a few out of the box to try out (and more from the modder community).

Comparatively maps in Elemental are pretty static due to the small number of seeds in use.

As far as I understand it you can have random maps when you add more map seeds to the game. Soooo where exactly is the problem?

I havn't played yet, so I'm just looking at the various replys of the now several threats about this issue. But seeing this game as being very mod friendly I can't seem to find any reason to be worried about the randomization. Correct me if I'm wrong but let's say you play 4-5 games on large maps...how long actually would it take to end those games? I mean if you encounter a repetiion every let's say...4 games it'll take you a few real time weeks of playing to actually have to worry about that or am I wrong?

People are disappointed because in a game like this random maps keep things fresh. Once you know the layout of the map exploration becomes mostly pointless. Yes, you will still explore for resources and goodie huts but its not the same. They could simply have unbalanced maps but people may not like it when they start a game and they're on a poor piece of land while their neighbor has access to two shards.

I think Frogboy said you can randomize the maps if you take the seeds out.

My only wonder is if this means some starting locations won't be viable or if they addressed that. I'm OK with maps not being 100% perfect because I favor a world where some nations are the have nots. But if it means some nations would be starting on top of a mountain unable to move then I would not do it.

He also said that to do so would throw balance out the window.  I think what we'd all like is for there to be truly random landmasses, so that chokepoints and such change, but also to have a balanced spread of resources across said maps so that the game doesn't start slowly or unnessarily disadvantage one player over the others. 

If having that is impossible, then I'd rather have an option to turn on that would give me a truly random map, even if it meant risking an uneven distribution of resources.

Also: Todd, do you mean that there are only four actual maps (of whatever size you were playing), or are there more, but you just got a repetition on the fourth try?

Well you get to see a small 128x128 preview which is probably small enough that you have little idea about the map other than where large land masses and water are.

I agree user created maps are not a fix for not having random maps, but it should help give the game more life over time if we get an active community of map creators.  Sure some of them will be a little basic or plain odd, but I am sure there will be some high quality generic maps too.