A Question on the old "Continuous Turn" system.

Ah that would be a handy reference to have for people wanting to play around with the combat system. I think it would be very beneficial if that "code" got released as it would accelerate a bunch of mods that plan on changing how the system works.

I can think of at least 4 Mods being planned that would benefit greatly from seeing that code. Let's hope Frogboy or Boogie kept the code and put it up for a rainy day when they'll want to share it.

How did the continuous turn system work? Was it like Dominions 3 where you just set up everyone to do their thing and then have them fight while you watch?

When I read about it i thought it was like Neverwinter Nights/Baldur's Gate/Icewind Dale series, isn't it?

From what we understood it was like what Lorthrik here describes. We never got a chance to try it out first hand how-ever. It was decided internally that this system didn't have the right "feel" they were going for. I understand that entirely from the perspective of what they wanted to do and go for with Elemental, but, there's still a bunch of us modders that would like to see what the file structure for it looked like so we could adjust the tactical battles in upcoming mods.

In Aow:SM you could watch other tactical battles (although I thought this was kind of cheating at least it kept waiting players a bit entertained). I have a number of ideas that could create better flow for players.

1. Limit rush turn taking tactics so players that make their moves quickly dont get an advantage. (As in attacking a city first before another player).

2. Make tactical battles fun for other players either by 1 letting them watch or 2 by allowing them to take their next turn while the players slog it out allowing for catch up from the players once they finish the battle. Potentially if its a long battle maybe the players fighting in tactical can allow players to move on in their turns (if for instance no players are that near each other to influence the 2 battling). All new aggressive moves towards the 2 players who are in tactical would be frozen allowing the players to react to the replay of turns taken before the new aggression when they resume their normal play after tactical.

3. Like total war, only use tactical when 2 sides are of equal(ish) power otherwise autoresolve. This could be on a sliding scale. (From fight only on 40-60% range through to 10-100% range depending on what people like). Also maybe a vote on tactical as well rather than a threshold system or a combination of the two? So one player wants to auto the other might vote to tactical the other players can veto this. 

Just some ideas.

I wouldn't expect any of the old code base to stick around.

The code is for sure alive. They are using for sure a source control system and those things keep all the code that existed in the project. It may not be alive now, but it's as easy as to go to the revision when it was alive and get it.

But enabling it, I see it hard, the whole combat was reworked to be played in turns, I doubt the old code will even compile...

Well, yes. I'm sure they can dig up the bits of code in the early revision, but that's useless if it's not present in the current compiled code since nobody will be able to do anything anything with it What RavenX was asking is if the code exists to be turned on so the modders could play with it. But modders can't really recompile the source code using whatever old stuff they've got, so..

There was some talk about leaving that engine in, in case modders wanted to use it. With how much stuff has changed since then I've got no idea if it's actually going to be doable or not though.

Now there's an interesting quote. It sounds more like it's left for them to try something with, since he said it's not exposed - which sounds like when they do come out with Python support for messing around with mechanics and not just content we won't be able to do anything with it. Still, that's a mark towards "This might actually be possible"

Well, we "could" recompile the code if necessary. The tools to do so aren't that hard to find at a decent price. What I am lacking however is the "know-how" to use them and do any needed decompiling, and the files themselves of course.

Same here, Tridus.

Hopefully now that this thread is getting some replies and some views maybe if Frogboy or one of the Team has a minute they'll give us a little insight into the matter. *crosses fingers*

Agreed. I think you worded the "we won't be able to do anything with it" wrong though. Having the files would mean we "Would" be able to do something with it, provided we can figure out how of course. Which as you say is a mark towards "This might actually be possible".

Then again maybe I just didn't understand the wording there. Either way, you're right. Now we just need to know for sure whether or not the files we'll need are still actually going to be buried in the Python somewhere.

I remember reading a post from the frog that he planned on releasing the old combat system post release so people could take a look at it and compare it to the new one to see which they liked better. So you might get your wish.

It's not really "files". All the code is basically in the compiled .exe. The files are mostly just resources for the game (dlls aside).

Stardock's legal department would love to have a word with you if you tried The code base is propriatary, after all.

You think they'd have a problem with people wanting to "re-compile" their own mods? I can see where there would be a problem with people taking apart their code, but in some cases (total conversion mods, mods that literally make a different kind of game out of Elemental) it might be necessary.

Mods do what the exposed engine functionality allows them to do. They would absolutely have a problem if someone tried to decompile the executable and rewrite a bunch of core functions That's why they're going to let us use Python eventually to do more fancy stuff - it gives the modders the ability to mess with the mechanics a bit (how much will remain to be seen) without making public the source code.

I should note, however, that it would be very, very difficult and time consuming to decompile a game like Elemental into proper C++. That's why developers don't really worry about it.

If you're really curious about the concept, check out this page for a nice enough explanation http://www.debugmode.com/dcompile/

True. What about all the talk of "You'll be able to make Any Kind of game you want out of Elemental" though? I figured changing core mechanics would definitely be something where you'd need to change the core files in Python. Whether or not it would have to be "re-compiled" afterwards I have no idea.

Interesting link, I'll definitely check that out. Thanks man.

Note: Still hoping this thread gets some Dev attention.

I think you're confusing yourself a bit. This isn't going to be a perfect analogy, but close enough. Consider the tile editor. We get all the bits and pieces that we can put together to make our own tiles. We're not *changing* any of these "core" pieces, we're using them to build something else. Python scripting is basically going to be the same way. Our pieces will be the different things the Elemental engine is capable of doing, and the scripts will take them and put them together to do what the modder wants it to do. We wouldn't be changing anything in the core code of the game, we'd just be telling the engine what we want it to do specific to our mod. There's no recompiling anything.. like reading XMLs to put units, quests, etc in the game, the engine will read the Python script and do what the script tells it to.

Ahh, that makes more sense, yeah. See, told you I don't know anything about Python. I had no clue it would even be similar to XML. From what I understand it has "similarities" with C# and C+ which I have a "little" experience with from my UO days, but that was the last time I did any even remotely "serious" coding. Even then I didn't have to do any completed coding. I'd whip up the items or spells I wanted to use and then pass off my files to the internal coders who would make it work and fix any errors I made. My job as a Seer and Gm made me responsible for writing quests and then running them and later conceptualizing the mechanics for the Necro and Paladin classes. I didn't really have to do any of the heavy coding my-self. Origin had a whole room full of guys I never even met in person handling all that.

As a benchmark, Python and XML modding were available for CIV IV on day 0.  They released the uncompiled dll (SDK) at some point later in the timeline, around a year later.  For some perspective on what should and shouldn't be done with DLL modding (something we probably won't have on day 0), see Xienwolf's thread on CFC.

As annatar11 says, you only get to modify what is "exposed" to python in the dll.  Now, exposing functions isn't a huge hassle, but the developer has to do that, and that takes time.  I would not be surprised if we see more and more functions exposed as time goes on.

*bump*

Frogster? Boogie?

Hell....even Jafo?

(ok, maybe not Jafo.....)

j/k Jafo