Bully Score

...Okay, so I'm not sure the thread title properly represents what I plan on proposing. 

Basically, I was playing Fall From Heaven 2 the other day when I realized something: The easiest and most rational way to win in most 4X games is to never attack the strongest opponent, but to instead gobble up as many small opponents as possible until you outstrip every other opponent in all categories of progress.  This will generally produce a game that is rife with tedeous, non-straining wars and infrequently large pandemonium, unless the AI starts it first. 

A counter weight to this paradox, I think, would be to add a sort of "bully score."  A bully score would take effect when a sovereign begins gobbling up numerous smaller opponents by force.  The penalty wouldn't take effect unless numerous small opponents were womped, and might diminish as time goes on.  "Picking on someone your own size" would incur no bully score. 

The actual penalty itself would manifest itself as a broad (and increasing, as the penalty goes up) negative diplomacy modifier for most other opponents, with perhaps the exception of close friends or other bullies.  Also, a high bully score will dramatically increase the odds of smaller players forming military alliances with one another against you (perhaps after declaring your third war on a much smaller power, his friends decide that enough is enough!)  Each time you are about to declare a war, you might be informed how many bully points you'll pick up, which might flavor your decision.

The point of the bully score isn't to prevent utterly the conquest of significantly smaller opponents, but to make such conquests successively less appealing and large wars against large and medium opponents more appealing.  You can see this kind of rationale in real life too--- when Napoleon and Hitler began gobbling up smaller sovereignties, everyone else began getting very nervous.        

7,283 views 10 replies
Reply #1 Top

I think that's not a bad idea to factor into diplomatic AI.  the EU series does that somewhat through badboy score.

Reply #2 Top

The Hearts of Iron series has a system kind of like this, when you annex a country you piss off most of the world and increase your threat. Smaller nations will feel threatened but probably won't attack you, so instead they join one of the rival factions. This could work in Elemental by smaller kingdoms forming alliances or a big nation deciding you're becoming a threat to it because you're expanding by force and declare war on you. While simply expanding by regular means, trade and building new cities will still increase your threat it won't be as much as if you expand by taking other cities by force.

 

Threat should also decrease over time when you're at peace and/or trading with with the big cheese. But the game should definately have a way to provide a challenge by making the smaller nations band together in defensive alliances or have your biggest rival attack you pre-emptively.

Reply #3 Top

Yes, several games (including Civ, I think, and most Paradox titles) include a 'Badboy' rating which makes it harder for an aggressive player to succeed with that strategy.

Reply #4 Top

Quoting arstal, reply 1
I think that's not a bad idea to factor into diplomatic AI.  the EU series does that somewhat through badboy score.
End of arstal's quote

§

event 5025

event 5025

event 5025

event 5025

§

Reply #5 Top

Galactic Civilizations II already does this. The AI will outright tell you that it's coming after you because you keep conquering  little guys.

Reply #6 Top

You may wish to Google for Game Theory. It is rather good.

Reply #7 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 5
Galactic Civilizations II already does this. The AI will outright tell you that it's coming after you because you keep conquering  little guys.
End of Frogboy's quote

Yeah, but I don't ever recall seeing a diplomacy modifier that states something to the effect of: "You have pushed around the little people! -2"  The closest I've ever seen is: "You've declared war on my friend!!"

In any games that penalize bullying, the score is always hidden from you.

Reply #8 Top

This happens in a lot of games because it is exactly what real life players would do to stop you from a runaway victory. It can get really annoying though. I've played a lot of games where I start to get big and then suddenly, everyone who is even remotely near me is threatened by my borders and size and hate me. It essentially throws the entire diplomacy aspect of the game out the window. The problem seems to happen the most in games where diffculty level determines how much AI hate you. Turning the game on hard means no diplomacy =(. It also is fairly unrealistic for all other AI to be unified in their defiance. Someone near you would probably be scared and be willing to be friends, but I rarely see that.

Reply #9 Top

It should definitely not be just a size issue. Being a large nation should have some small diplo penalty. Being a large benevolent nation should offset this. If no one sees your nation expanding through conquest smaller nations rather than being afraid of you should tend to look to you for protection when other nations are doing the gobbling (however if  you turn on and consume one of your smaller allies this should change in a sudden and ugly way).

If a smaller nation declares war on you and you defeat and take over that nation forming the former cities of that nation into a new vassal state should have a diplomatic bonus (look see he liberated them from that violent dictator) unless it's obvious that the vassal is a puppet. YOU declaring war on a nation and doing the same thing should have a slightly smaller penalty that just conquering but not much (No no no! We're not conquerors, we're liberating you from people we don't like)


Is SHOULD be possible to create allies through intimidation. But there won't be any loyalty there, if they get a better offer they'll stab you in the back. OTOH those allies that are true friends should be far more likely to stick it out or if distancing themselves is a necessity for their survival they will tell you so and formally break the alliance not suddenly turn on you.


EDIT: Sorry for the weird formatting code in the middle

Reply #10 Top

Quoting Frogboy, reply 5
Galactic Civilizations II already does this. The AI will outright tell you that it's coming after you because you keep conquering  little guys.
End of Frogboy's quote

Got that one once after taking out a single Minor: my first conquest of the game.  I think the other factions were busy with other, larger problems, but it made me tread lightly for awhile.  Definitely one of those "this is cool" moments.