Any part of an online game is going to be making and playing with friends.  Either people from RL or that you met online.  This usually means that you need features to cater to this, and those features are usually what competitive players want (clan stuff including chats and the ability to play as a regular team easily for example).  If you have an online game that doesnt allow this easily, I think that you are going to have some struggles in the medium and long term.

I think that you have to be careful with not doing anything for players who play more competitively.  It becomes something of a self fulfilling prophecy - of course you will have no competitive players if you have no features that such players expect.  In my opinion, most games that remain vibrant for a long time do so in part because there is a nice balance between competitive play and casual.

Right now, I think that DG is adequate for casual play.  You can get in games and play.  However, the mechanics for competitive play are just not there right now.  I'm not saying that casual play should be ignored, but I dont think that it should be the overwhelming focus either.  This is about the time in a game's lifetime when a competitive community should be forming, and right now it cant really form with the game as it is.

I think that you are right that the stats are important.  But unless you can fix the Pantheon/Skirm problem of people quitting until they get on their premade, please dont make those the only source of stats.  Things are just going to get ugly if you brand everybody with their stats but you can only get those stats in Pantheon/Skirm.  A lot of premades play to be the "best" and so I forsee problems.

I like the random teams option.  I think that it would be popular enough to justify the time spent implementing it.

Also, can we please have team chat in the lobby?  It would really enhance casual play because it would let players not on some kind of VOIP system to at least strategize a little bit before games.  Obviously integrated VOIP would be ideal, but I think that a lobby chat would do a lot and it should be easier to do.

double post

I have a question - can we put up a vote for who would want/use a team ranked system?

I personally don't play seriously at the moment, but would put more effort into it if there were team ranked games.  Maybe there are a few other people like me out there that are currently showing up as 'casual' ?

The really odd thing about this discussion is that Demigod is really pushing itself as a 'team game' - yet we are still debating things that would normally make sense for people who play as a team.  Even if you didn't have a complete automatch system for team ranked games - I wonder if the 'serious' people would be happier if there were more scheduled team matches/tournaments (like 2 times a week for each region).  Set it up so that if enough teams sign up, the game is on, otherwise it isn't.  How much code would that take?

I understand the players themselves could do this with enough coordination - but it would be nice if tools where in place to make this easier.

Another random idea - let the players create a custom game that is a tournament - they can set the number of teams/players for teams, maps for each stage, and starting time.  Let them plan the start time anywhere from an hour to a month ahead of time.  People would register for the game - and then at the start time, everyone logged on (maybe forced in a unique chat room 20 minutes prior?) would be pulled into the tourny.  Let the game keep track of wins/drop outs, and advance teams to the next match.  We might need a method to time limit games, picking the winner from some reasonable value (most citidal damage, if even, most building damage in general - if even, highest combined lvls/exp ? )

Unless this vote is put into the actual game to pop up when a person logs in using their account (with agree/disagree/do not care options), the results will not be an accurate portrayal.  There are undoubtedly many players who do not ever visit the forum.

Wasnt pre-arrange team for pantheon supposed to be include ? We were talking about this even in beta....

Should'nt take too much ressource to do it imo. when waiting for pantheon, there could be a little tick box in the friend list that tell always join pantheon game with this players if possible. It should work since matchmaking is on stardock side.

I know my method sound as a "cheap" incorportation but damm at least it will provide what we want at a verry low ressource cost imo.

Anyway its in the hand of SD to decide.

I say tick box is da winner

Shadow loves this game. He is simply trying to make his point and his interests seen and read.

If you cannot accept anything less than the eloquence of Shakespeare then go public theatre. Leave him alone and let him get his points across.

Constructive criticism can be made without Shakespearian eloquence and without being a jerk. Unfortunately, Shadow came off as a jerk and Frogboy must have banned his account.

Agreed.  Most of us that are fairly dedicated players are on the forums, but many are not.  I'd wager a forum vote would be 70-90% in favor of a new feature - even if none of us intended to use it. 

Frogboy I think that in a game like this a fair amount of players are likely to transition into premade teams if there's the right structure to support it.  I would wager a lot of players are new and haven't met anyone yet or have met people but didn't have a simple way to connect and play together. It just seems like the majority of premades are people who know each other from outside the game and who use external communication methods.

Part of that is the friends and chat system which isn't as intuitive as say steam and the other part is that going premade doesn't really serve a purpose right now because you just keep fighting the same random people once you do it, so basically teaming up with someone is just lowering the difficulty level.

As you guys continue to develop impulse and the community matures I think more people will want to play together and it would be very helpful to have the infrastructure for it, especially if it's relatively easy to do.  Would it get used a lot right away?  Maybe not, but I really do think that the perception of its usage would be good for the game.  Players who get frustrated by games with bad partners would at the very least have a viable solution and even if they didn't use it that still makes the losses easier to stomach.

If you're dealing with finite resources and you're retasking DG animators and designers, bug testers, and lua coders to implementing that system then maybe it's not worth it, but if you have some guys who are working on tasks which aren't such obvious crowd pleasers I do think it'd be a very positive step for the game to have that matchmaking put in place...

but then again I could be totally wrong.  

As for shadow it's probably a bad idea to use a dev's first name and be directly confrontational.  But to Frogboy please remember some people who are a bit abrasive are only so emphatic because they care about the game and shadow seems to fall into that category.  I don't think he's a troll and he's one of those guys who always disagree with me and without them people like me would have very little reason to post, I think he's an important part of the conversations here.

Hopefully you guys have a punishment scale, aka 24 hour ban, 72 hour, perma, or whatever.  If you do I would assume shadow's would be one of the lesser punishements.

Assuming that basic game functions are implemented, the competitive and casual communities typically do not overlap or come into conflict with one another, the way they have in Demigod. As long as there aren't competitives ruining their fun, casuals are typically happy with whatever the game happens to be or become. They require very little upkeep, perhaps a new map here, a new DG there, and they will be happy. Competitives too are relatively easy to please, all they ask is a relatively balanced game and a way to play meaningful matches against competent opponents. In any game, the competitive community is smaller than the casual one, but no less important. In fact, most companies wisely prioritize the competitive community, since they are the ones likely to stay with the game long-term, provide meaningful insight into balance changes, participate in popularity-enhancing tournaments, etc. Whereas the casual community will likely move on once they're bored. 

Anyways, it doesn't matter whether you prioritize the competitive community or not (even though I think its obvious you should). What does matter is that it is very very easy to keep both groups happy. All you have to do is provide a game with basic game functions. The overriding function that is missing, the one that would simulataneously satisfy the competitive demands for meaningful competition and the casual cry for abolishing premades from their games, is Team Automatch. At this point I don't know what more I can do to emphasize much more important this is than anything else DG-related that GPG might be working on. 

Soffacet I think that's a false dichotomy.  Look at Warcraft 3.  You had extremely competitive players who played almost exclusively on the FFA or random team ladders, and you had tons of people who played on the team ladder who were not very good.

A good team ladder should be a pyramid, not a big blob of pros, and I think that if there were a system which made premades practical we would see that pyramid develop.

Seriously let's look at what it means to be a premade right now: 

1. harder to start games
2. games are less competitive without elaborate coordination
3. lots of people don't like you
4. you pretty much need to use a third party communication program

Demigod was designed to be a team game. And now you say you dont want to support teams of friends or other people who want to play together... because there are not enough people who play.

Maybe you think about the reason why there are  "only" 2000 people left. I think lots of people would like to come back, if new demigods/maps matchmaking features would be in place.

Not beeing able to hit a button and jump into a fun game with friends is one major problem of this game. Without arranged team games, its just no fun for a team of 3 or 4 friends to get a game going. Currently most games are just noob stomps or people quit after some minutes and both will drive other new players away from demigod.

Lots of people I know have moved on because its too hard to play with friends and more will follow if you dont add this feature as fast as possible.

Releasing a demo for this game without having team support is a really bad idea.

The only stats that should be shown are average deaths and average kills in the 1st 15 minutes of a game (this would tell you everything about your teamates) and possibly average favor per game. Since I know you won't do this....

Stats should be split apart for skirmish/pantheon

There are many Pantheon only players that are much better than their stats show simply because they are Pantheon only players.

Having said that...

Want to make DG players happy? Want an awesome community? On the Pantheon screen have an "Invite Friend" button. When you pick your friend(s), then you click Fight. Then you fight a 2vs2 or 3vs3 in Pantheon with people of your choosing.

Having this will not stop people from simply being able to jump in the game and play by themselves, but it will vastly increase the number of people playing DG and will vastly increase the happiness of players. 

I'm a little baffled by the banning of Shadow.  IMO, he is completely right.

I've spent most of my time playing in pantheon or custom pugs, but that is only because there is very little to encourage me to play any other way.  I've avoided joining clans because I see little point for it with no in game support.  I would love to join one and get into some good team play, as that is where this game shines, but until the support is there I'll stick to pugs and pantheon.

So what is it going to be?  Are we not going to see proper team game support?  Is that clan wars update not going to fulfill this?   I haven't been playing much lately, and a lot of this has to do with getting bored with the current state of the game.  New Demigods will be nice, but if we don't see the TEAM GAMEPLAY that this title was designed for fleshed out I doubt the longevity of this game strongly.

The attitude keeps on going, you fail to understand that these people that are most vocal are also the ones that love the game most.  Alienating competative players is the downfall of any multiplayer game.  The truth hurts, no...

How about you fix the impulse messaging system first and foremost, so we have means of communication.  That one _IS_ your part of the deal, no?  Or maybe that one was screwed up by GPG too?  Please enlighten us how is anyone supposed to arrange games with people they met in the game if there is abouslutely no way to communicate ingame!!!

Let me explain to you how your game works currently, YMMV

1) I look for people recognize as a decent and usually "XvX no Noobs" 1/6 players.  I quickly jump in the game and if I manage to be on the first team - good.  If not, I've been thru too much frustration with very poor players on my team - I give them "have fun" and leave.  Some people recognize me too, so they save a spot on their team.

2) Usually quickly after creation some more decent players will jump into the game.  The ones that end up on team 2 usually go "not thx" and leave.

3) Since we want to play and have no means of inviting good players we know into the game or checking stats, we take whatever joins on team 2.  Usually it ends up with a stomp of 40-4 kills.  Most games will have a rage drop on the other side sooner or later.

I'd love more than anything to be able to find a game with people I know are close to my skill level.  I'd love to be able to join said game and message friends to jump in too.  I'd love to have a channel where people of my skill level hang around, where we can say "lets do a 3v3".

Unfortunately, with the communications system ingame completely broken, there is no way to get people organized in customs.  We end up with the frustration of a beautiful game ultimately destroyed by few bad design and programming decisions.

Additionaly, auto-match ladder is as broken as ever (broken rankings, team joins, lack od players for skill based matching).  People mention Starcraft FFA or random teams - those ladders were never as competative as the arranged team or solo ladders.  Also, SC (and Warcraft) matchmaking was doing a pretty good job at matching people of appropriate skill.

I do hope you understand that there are currently 131 people on the custom ladder with above 1500 exp.  580 above 1100 experience.  Dream on about any auto-matchmaking system!  The best that can be done at this moment for the game is providing means to communicate and do meaningful customs.

Myself and others have already stated that this would be the only game mode we would play if it were implemented.  Many of those interested in this feature don't actually post on the forums.  Like you, we are casual players looking to not get ambushed by premade teams.

Additionally, when this feature was implemented in Dawn of War, it was (is) popular.  No one can cry foul about being at a disadvantage because teams were stacked beforehand.

So what is the difference between that and Pantheon, assuming Pantheon starts working properly at some point?

If we had a random teams option for custom games, you could just join a "RANDOM TEAMS PRO/NO NOOB" game instead without having to worry about which half of the lobby you're on - see 2 posts up.

Random teams would fix this.

"4v4 random teams no noobs" FTW

Of course Team Automatching is important, but for those of us who simply *wouldn't* use the team automatch feature, random teams would be a nice alternative to being stuck in the exact scenarios you describe.

***EDIT: a critical part to the success of the random teams implementation is the ability to view stats in-game before the game starts.  I'm glad to see that Frogboy said they would be working this in.

Bingo!

And means to communicate and invite friends.  Just these two, even without randomized teams, would be a big improvement.

Wow... I'm shocked at what ive read.   We'll I had a feeling anyway, but to hear it directly is just shocking.

Not only are you not making the changes that are preventing alot of people from playing this game, but you're even making it harder for those people currently playing to get a game going.

I'll never be purchasing another GPG or Stardock game if this is how they percieve games should be made. You just lost 8 customers, those are the "casual" gamers you are supposed to cater to (1-2 games a night with friends). I think you have made a fundamental flaw of believeing all casual players don't play with friends, and that anyone that does only cares about competitive play.

Oh wah. 

Seriously Wickbear.  We're talking about a game that is now 3 months post release. It is what it is.  If what it is isn't good enough then the game deserves to die.  On the other hand, if the game is good and can continue to grow over time with its existing feature set merely enhanced then that's great.

These discussions have to be put in the context of an already released game with the feature set it has. This is the game Gas Powered Games wanted to make. You may not agree with their vision but you should respect that this is what they wanted.

If something like LoL or HoN is closer to what you want to play, go play that instead.

Now, post release, we can listen to what features people want and see how Demigod can be enhanced in one direction or another. I was the one who pushed to get Pantheon and Skirmish in in the first place -- that came from the publisher side.  

So while I do tend to agree that there should be more competitive features in Demigod, features that would revolve massive amounts of work by GPG aren't going to happen in a free update.  

There's a lot we can do to improve it but people who think Demigod is no where near what they want should look for a different game because Demigod is the game GPG wanted to make. The design document for the game never envisioned a lot of the features or wishlists that people seem to be expecting to materialize months after release.  

What have been doing, and continue to do, is read what people request and look at how we can get features put into the game that have a good "bang for the buck" ratio.

Better integration with friends lists, clan support, better stat tracking, etc. these are things that can be done post-release.

Please don't neglect replays. That one is inexcusable.

And bug fixes, how is that less excusable?

You can't really pull the sheet over my head like most the people. I don't consider the game to be bad at all, infact, I love the game. But you can't honestly tell me that the statements you made didn't have serious negative connotations for people that play with friends, so large in fact, that it would be worth seeking another game.

I stuck with this game, despite its flaws and bugs not only because it was a good game, but because we were told to hang in there and that there would be development. When you made the statements you made, you made a serious blow to alot of gamers that have been relying on you to this point to see this game kept alive. I really didn't want to see this game die out like the original dota did, but that seems overly apparent with whats going to happen to it.

Why do I have to respect what I considered to be a flawed vision? If that is their vision for their future games to prevent friends from playing with friends and just meeting faces and forgetting them everyday, i'd rather be supporting a different company.

If it was, i'd already be there. If I didn't like this game, I wouldn't be here.

When you lead the I believe bandwagon, people will begin to follow you. But in all seriousness, it's not about "competitive". Were talking basic support here, games that are 10 years old have better systems for playing with friends than this one does. I've never said you should be doing x or x or hosting 100,000$ cash prize tournys, I just want a system that I can play with people i know in a team oriented game.

And i'm not argueing this isn't the way to handle things. But what I heard from your post was "I giveup on teamplay". I'm tired of hearing this community consider friends playing with friends is just ass's who only wish to stomp on the faces of the innocent random player. To hear similar words from the publisher of the game, was insulting.

Your own words,

People just want to have a good fun game period. I would rather play a game with people I know than the best game in the world. I KNOW im not the only one that plays your game that feels the same way. It's hard enough to get people to convince people to spend money on your game, as I've personally spent over 120$ just to get friends on the game with me. 

Kudos for responding though, I thought for surely you wouldn't.