3v2 Pantheon?!?

At least it seems to me that they enabled 3v3 games in pantheon again today... I don't think it has been enabled for awhile now.  I tried to get into 3 games... none of the 3 had all 6 people in them when they launched (in some cases after a delay of 6-8 minutes). 

If you end up in a match where you are outnumbered (2v1 or even 2v1+1ai), I don't think many people in the community take any offense if you quickly explain that and then quit.  You're not doing yourself any real favors by sticking it out outside of the 10-40 favor points you might earn. 

If pantheon is not working properly and you are new, I'd recommend creating a custom game like 2v2 NOOBS only please or joining a game like that.  Pantheon is alot better than it was, but it is still hit and miss... seems like miss alot with 3v3 enabled again. 

But if it's a 3v3 game then why isnt there a 3rd AI player on my side?  Seriously, this was a game with only 2 DGs on one side.

Pantheon is completely hosed for darkside right now. I keep getting 3vs 2 or me plus AIs vs multiple players.

The system does not gaurantee N vs. N sides.

It balances both sides based on their XP.  2 good players vs. 3 new players and so forth. Don't assume just because you face 3 opponents that you're going to lose.

That's an interesting unexpected new system.

But I AM a new player, total online games prolly <20.  Just how negative is the win/loss ration for the three guys on the other side for me to be considered worth one-and-a-half one of them?  It's not like my partner is worth double, srsly, they were pretty mediochre too.

Also, if a pro re-rolls a new profile called "IMANUB" with a 0/0 w/l record will it actually fool the matchmaker into giving him extra help?

I don't assume that 3 vs 2 is an automatic lose but in this game

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/635348/player/27496/

It is clearly not putting me with a good player. The next two times it tried to set a 5 man game it stick me against TDNpanya and some other players I know are good.

Or if you look at Malkavelli's stats

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/634921/player/24915/

I'm getting the impressions that the match ups are uneven because there is an imbalance in the number of light vs dark players.

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/635249/player/46787/

or how about

http://pantheon.demigodthegame.com/game/635514/player/43650/

3 vs 1 + ai where one of the 3 has a rank of 10 and another has a rank of 234.

It's a crap system. 2v3 in Demigod would require an absolutely enormous skill level difference for the team of 2 to even have a decent chance.

Also I'm sorry but that last sentence is total bullshit. Waste 40 minutes of your time in a boring game in which your chances of winning are beyond microscopic?  In some RTS like Age of Empires, 2 good or pro players can quite easily beat 3 new or subpar players because they can outnumber them in forces. In Demigod you're only 1 unit perhaps with negligible minions. IN other RTS you don't really need to be anywhere or go anywhere all throughout the entire game. In Demigod you must be capping flags, if not, that's almost a guaranteed loss because the enemy will dominate with powerful grunts.

Busdude, that's really not true.  There are plenty of people in the Demigod community who, by themselves, could take on 3 players (we've seen it). But the system won't allow more than 3 v. 2.

That said, there ARE other things that cause it to be 3 v 2 than the match up.  For instance, if someone drops at just the right time, you can end up with that situation.

The problem with the system is some of the assumptions made.  IMO, we (Stardock/GPG) had some breathtaking naivete about the nature of human beings that looking back we shouldn't have had.  It never occurred to us that people would just quit games because they didn't get the map they wanted or the game condition they wanted leaving others stranded.

In hindsight it's obvious I think but at the time, for whatever reason, it wasn't. Clearly, I think it will need some reworking but it's easier said than done because it's not as if we can insert a new human player once the game has started.  

Simply put, it is very hard to work against people whose only consideration when playing online is their own personal enjoyment.

Frogboy - whiile you may have seen players that could take out 3 guys by themselves, I have never encountered a single person who could beat 3 human oppents by themself (no AI, no nothing)... and sad to say, but you've played less games than me.  I could, on my best day (maybe), beat 3 guys brand new to the game by myself.  I agree that some people drop from pantheon games early (before they are loaded), but I and 5 other people waited 6-8 minutes for a game to launch today, which resulted in several people dropping when the game loaded and a 2 humans + 1 ai v 1 human + 2 ai game. 

I'd think that if the game, without people dumping, can't negotiate loading a game in 6-8 minutes, there is a problem.  But honestly, maybe there was some crazy shite behind the scenes (like someone dumping 30 seconds into the load and us not hearing a player has dropped and then waiting 7 more min, etc).  I simply can't speak to the situation, other than to say I waited 6-8 minutes today for a game to load, and was greated with the results mentioned above.   

I completely agree with Busdude that if I am forced into a situation (due to people dropping before a load or whatever) to face a match that I cannot win, that I will NOT spend 40 minutes proving that.  Its a complete waste of time.  I'm not here to make a 2 guys happy that they could beat me and a computer and I don't think I'm being a dick by saying that.  AT ALL.  I didn't join pantheon indicating that I was so great that I could crush 2 people by myself.  I went in assuming that I'd have equal odds out of the gate.  I will add, though, that in every game where it has been 2 human v me or even 2 human v me and an ai, that I will go out and see if I can take them.  90% of the time, I don't have a chance, but its worth it to me to see if I can... braggin rights in dropping 2 humans by myself are great. 

FROGBOY - I know you don't get to play a ton, but I CHALLENGE YOU... play every game that you are outnumbered and post your win/lose stats.  For me, I think I have won exactly 1 game when outnumbered or stuck w an ai v 2 human opponents.  I'd be extremely surprized if your results were any different than mine. 

I think it is quite a laughable system. Especially for someone like me who almost never play pantheon nor try to stack on my wins (purposely switch team to get a win), so in the system I will almost always be near the bottom. Then this clever system will just put me on a stacked team against an opponent of my skill level or lesser (not to brag, but that's what happened). I know for sure that there is no way that I can fight against myself and 2 other guy. I would just pin myself onto the only opponenet, then my "maybe" (most likely not) newbie allies will just go all over the place. Then GG.

I think it is quite a pointless system. 3vs2 is still reasonable as 2 DG's combined power can really shine. However, 1 DG alone is severely limited; especially to some DG like regulus and ice TB.

Maybe start having "experience" stats in other game modes too?

I enjoy playing against challenges, but these people is not given a challenge, they are just having their hard earn stats taken away. Although I don't care for stats much, but if something I like alot was taken away from me; I would be angry too.

That is if... the system really is working as intended.

edit: omg, I just decided to check my stats and found out a skirmish game that I won with me + AI vs 2 human at zikurat were count as a loss. The only person won was the person who dropped out as the AI... Ok that's broken.

Also, sorry for the double post, but this is VERY interesting... so Frogboy, you say that...

I do not, in any way shape or form, understand what you mean by good players.  I'm a good player, I have a high ladder ranking (300-450)... whoopee.  One of the biggest problems with this game is as follows:

DEDICATED PLAYERS DO NOT UNDERSTAND ALL OF THE RULES INCORPORATED. 

I have no crystal clear understanding how favor works.  I know the game tells me a I earn a specific favor amount, but I don't always receive that favor amount.  What would be the intelligent way to resolve this?  The game would tell me exactly how much favor I can expect to receive.  AND JUST TO PAUSE HERE FOR A SECOND.  STARDOCK.  The game tells me I earned 40 favor points  Can you honestly think of a reason that I would receive 0 favor points?  The game just told me.  Why the hell shoud the game tell me something that is not true.  I know you think in terms of what work is on your side, but really... just think about in terms of a game told you that you earned 100 points, but when you get your web stats, you learned that you earned nothing... would you not be WTF?  END PAUSE.  Or, the game could tell me a bogus number, but I could look to the forum for a CLEAR explanation of what I receive (eg STARDOCK - POST A CLEAR LOGIC STATEMENT ON WHAT GETS FAVOR).  This is obviously not a good solution, but better than nothing.  Or last, I could get random, conflicting explanations regarding favor (see here http://forums.demigodthegame.com/355275) and make my best guess.  Seriously.  POST THE RULES OF THE GAME ESPECIALLY IF CONFLICTING INFO OCCURS.  I know this issue is muddled by server's not tracking favor correctly shortly after launch, but I assume that's not the issue now...

I had absolutely NO IDEA that the game actually attempted to match people by skill level (perhaps this was addressed but I missed it?).  At least some of the time, this is the result of poor communication.  SD staffers, please listen instead of getting pissed.  I found out today that 3v3 pantheon was enabled because I jumped into a game with it enabled.  I didn't see a post requesting feedback or telling me that a switch was going to be thrown.  If you asked, I'd tell you that I had 1 out of 4-5 games that actually work in 3v3 mode and that I think you should turn it off.  And back to matching by skill level... how the hell does that work?  I assume some math is involved... but here's my math... me v 2 humans = fail for me unless they are horribly dumb.  Maybe that wasn't the case in beta, but I add again... I'm not a bad player and I can't do consistently. 

Anyway, long rant, but that really cover's some big issues.  Just tell us what's going on clearly.  Make a sticked post about each of these if not clear just by playing.... 1 post for how favor works... another post for how matchmaking works.  Of course, you can only make a stickied post if the information enclosed is static.... I would be thrilled by a clear post.  And, I will immediately reward your company with money (I add that because 2 games are out that I want for the same price on Steam or Impulse... help me make the right decision :))

 Wow, knowing that it works this way I will not be playing Pantheon games again. This is not a game that lends to getting a win when out numbered. I will fight alongside an AI partner, but no partern?!

 I will continue to have fun in the Custom Games.

This reminds me of a 2v1 game I had once. My opponents were a Regulus and a Erebus and I was a UB. When I saw that it was a 2v1 game I thought about quitting automatically, but for some reason I decided to stay. By mid-game I was strong enough to easily kill either one of them, and by late-game I could take them both on at once.

I still lost, however, because they were able to slowly destroy my defenses while out flag capping me, screwing me over on warscore. I just wasn't able to keep up. Eventually they were able to buy giants while I was still stuck on priests(I had the money for giants as well, but I lacked the warscore). So they swept through my defenses and I lost.

But I still had a fun time. I was proud of myself for doing that well in a 2v1 situation, and I knew that if I had had a decent ally I would have won. Despite it being a 2v1 with me losing, it was still a GG because it was a close game.

^^

I just played a 3 vs 2, and me and my partner owned the other team. He played an awesome beast, and you could tell the other team was not that good. It turned out to be a really good game because it was close. The lack of skill by the other team was offset by the fact that they could control the flags alot better then we could, but we held them off at our base, then made it to lvl 10, bought up to giants, then flag locked all the portals and pushed them back. Its possible to win, but you need people that know what they are doing.

How the fuck can 1 play beat 2 others? Unless its that 2v2 small map... otherwise 3v1 the 3 unless completely retarded can control the flags and control 1-4 lanes of spawns of XP flowing, while 1 person can only be at one place at one time.

Ive won 1+ai vs 2+ai. It was a hard game, and if it wasn't that small 2v2 map I would of had no chance, luckily as TB and focused lane I could easily abuse my AoE and eventually turn the tide. Any other situation I would of been dead.


The 3v2 is stupid I seriously hope Stardock rethinks this silly logic... 3v2 is very hard to win... unless the 3 are very new to the game... its not even the skill that worries me, its the extra man who can go elsewhere and fuck towers or fortress up while 2 others push one area, or 3 guys push one area....

The thing DG fails at with these 3v2 matchups is theres no extra bonus for the handicapped team (2 players). Theres no extra gold, theres no extra XP. Therefoer you got 3 guys getting 3x gold as opposed to 2x. And they are getting maybe a little bit less XP due to sharing, but they can easily flag dominate the map.



A simple solution to Panth would be like Blizzard did with ladders. Select how big of a game you want before joining so it matches people that want bigger games. Then allow people to select 1 map they do not want to play, therefore it will attempt to match people of similar interests. It doesn't seem to be a hard system to understand....



Anyways Frogboy, I really hope you guys change this... I always thought it a flaw in the system... but if some of it was intended thats bad... I remember playing evil... 3v2, we were dark side, yet they had a UB on their team.... bug? or purpose?

Yeah, I like this topic ! Had a few games in pantheon yesterday and was surprised seeing 3vs3 being enabled. Unfortunately it took about 5-6 tries to get connected to a game with all players. And then what ? I ended in a 2vs3, me on the light side as Regulus with another Regulus partner (so no tanking hero) against an Erebus, an Oak and a QoT. We did quite well, the skill of the Erebus and Oak enemy was below us, the QoT knew what he did, died zero times (thanks to his nice shield). So I was able to go alone against erebus and Oak and earned some nice money, but we couldn´t be everywhere, so the enemy team could cap more flags, and QoT took out towers quite fast later on when we were on another side of the map.

Not to mention the money adavantage the enemy team had so they upgraded their citadel fast while I was improving my demigod with items to be able to go on 2 gods at a time.

End of the story: although being better players we got no chance to win due to lacking map control and much less money to spend on the citadel.

This gametype (2vs3) if indeed intended by stardock that way, is totally imbalanced and even for better players not to win.

3v3 is enabled? where was the announcement for that?

p.s. I only saw 2v2 last night

I played one Pantheon 3vs2 last night. I was on team whit 2 ppl. Good part was that, one of oposite team left during loading, so it made it a bit easyer. My team m8 was a good player and we didn't had problems to win this match.

A the begining i was really thinking WTF! But seeing that oposite team are noobs, made my day

In general im not against games like 3vs2, but then there should be some bonuss for team whit less man power (biger money income/dmg increased/faster flag capture/or someting that makes up for that).

That's debatable.

In the course of my 150 (semi)successful games of Pantheon, I've NEVER experienced someone leaving in the first 2 minutes, unless:

- (before 10/6) They quit after 1-10 minutes being stuck at the "Waiting for Players..." screen

- (after 10/6) After the same amount of time being stuck AFTER the "Waiting for Players..." screen.

- The matchup is not even (2v3, AI on one side)

- Desyncs

Later on "ragequits" occur naturally, but early leavings have, in my experience and perception, ALWAYS been caused by technical issues with the game rather than someone disliking certain maps/conditions.

I won a Pantheon 2v1 game yesterday as Torchbearer vs Sedna + Rook, I was well chuffed with myself

The only way I see the underdog team winning is if the other team has poor team work and understanding of game mechanics EG.  Feeding the undergod team creeps and kills, failing to buy flag locks, neglecting citadel upgrades/buying pointless ones.

2vs1, 3vs2 etc. is a horrible, horrible way to play in a ladder/tournament setting because it fails to take into account any of the game dynamics eg. More domigods = more map control = more money = more upgrades etc.  I would much rather play in a game where everyone is roughly the same skill level, rather than playing handicap games.

/agree with eliminating 3v2.  It simply isn't fair.  I still don't think that people quitting near the load screen is the problem.  Like some other posts on here, I joined a number of games yesterday that had 4-6 people in the connect info screen, and when we got itn the game it ended up being a 2v1 or 1v1 with 4 AI.  It just doesn't make sense that 4 people quit at the load screen. 

I won a 2vs1 Fortress pantheon game as Sedna vs QoT+TB on Exile.  I was surprised.  But I think what won it was this:

If they fought me 1 vs 1, I could beat them because they were kinda new.  If they teamed up, I just avoided them and went and farmed the other lane.  Since I was farming creeps by myself, I gained XP faster than they did since they had to split the XP from their creeping.  So by mid-game I outleveled them and was then able to score kills even when they were teamed up.  Shortly after that, they both rage-quit.