Entrenchment Beta 1.0 (thoughts and balance by krunk)

from Stardock Forums

So I have been playing entrenchment and I have to say great job! the update is fantastic, and adds a lot of options that I really REALLY like. there are of course issues with it that i have, and I will list them here, anyone else who has thoughts or suggestions or just thinks I'm completely wrong just list it here. i have highlited the bullets incase your lazy ass doesn' want to read all of my rhetoric.

FIRST of all KNOWN bugs

1. if alloyis active youcannot upgrade space stations. you tell me it doesn't make any sense to me

2. when selecting groups of ships from the zoomed out MAP mode clicking multiple times selects the different ships in the sector. Holding SHIFT while giving commands to said ships should make ALL selected ships do whatever it is you said. Unfortunatly in quite a few swituations only the CAP ship, or the highest level ship or only the first selected ship will follow the command.

3. When holding shift and giving chain commands to ships RIGHT click gegnerally means attack, however if you tell a ship to attack ships in one system, move to a position, jump, and then attack ships in another system that ships interprets the commands for the second system as MOVE TO instead of ATTACK. This has been pissing me off since 1.12, but of course the way to fix it is to click the ATTACK button when issueing the chain of commands.

4. for some reason now, if there is any bounty on anyone and those bountys are = with reguards to any pirate inhibiting upgrades pirates will dispatch for all parties with bounty...huh...I dont get it, I mean if that is on purpose ok sure, but I didn't know if this was intentional or not.

5. I CANT HOST. Primarily becuase I'm playing on a laptop, and my little Dualcore 1.5Ghz with 8 gigs of ram (using readyboost) can't make the server run, I know I need a new computer, but all that aside, 45 minutes into EVERY game it slows to a crawl. I would imagine that this is due to the THOUSANDS of mines, and hundreds of strike craft that littler the screen at any point in time. OK OK this isn't really a bug I just wanted to vent.

#1 Carriers Mines and Strike Craft OH MY!!!

Something SERIOUSLY must be done about the power of carriers. They are uber in every situation, and even the addy to the tec hanger for flak cannons makes little to no difference when 5 or more carriers are nearby. SO!!! I propose the following minor changes that will not only make carrier spam a little less effective, but also make mine spammers think twice about laying 5millions mines anywhere (<--guilty).

A. Strike craft can run into mines. Thats it. It gives me a feasable way to beat carriers without spamming anti air frigates, or an = or > number of carriers, and it solves the problem of clearing mine fields! which currently is very slow and terribly annoying because they are not auto targeted even when a scout is nearby, and it adds a little bit of balance to the field of carrier spam which I think is the lamest thing since pickles and cream cheese iceing (which you really must try).

B. please PLEASE make the thing slower OR drop the hitpoints of the carriers. maybe by HALF or something. as if it isn't dumb enough to have to chase them all over the map with my entire fleet firing, but again all one has to do is spam a ton of carriers, and most small frigates will die on thier way (especially if the players is good) to the carrier. The whole point of the carrier is  that it is a sitting duck, and that in its OWN right it should require a great deal more care than it currently does.

NERF CARRIERS, Update strike craft.

#2 Mines

A. In the prior paragraph i explained about clearing mines with carriers. it would be an effective way for someone to clear an area that had been OVER mined if they didn't have a scout in the area because HEY strike craft are expendable. On top of that they travel so fast they would have trouble avoiding the mines even if they COULD see them, so they should die.

B. I dont understand WHY I can SEE the enemy's mines WITHOUT a scout. I mean i know i can't attack them, but it kinda defeats the purpose if they are visable. phased out and cloaked would probably be a better thing. I mean the whole idea is that you surprize the nme with a load of explosions at a place he wasn't expecting them. Obviously if you do this then the area in which a scout can see the mine will be drastically increased, and a fleet should automaticcaly assume the mine is a priority target and destroy if detected. Double blind please.

C. Damage that the mines do is great! no complaints there at all. but why dont exploding mines damage friendly targets? I mean Ill be fine with it if you can explain to me why a vasari mine cant hurt a vasari ship, but you better not steal your explainination from star trek.. Nothing would make me feel better than to suicide one of my strike craft into an nme mine because the moron got his CAP ship too close to it. This is a defeinite MUST for mines, honestly it is silly that they dont do damage to everything within explosion radius. On top of that it requires a little more CARE for placement. I like the idea of creating mine fields at certain locations so that if you are runnning away with your cap ship and you have to jump at a certain spot to miss mines the NME doesn't know about, and BOOM all pursuing crafts dissapear giving my badly damaged cap ship a needed upgrade. this may force players to have a little more artistic liscense when setting up UBER defences at thier homeworlds. It may also force players to make use of the regimenting, engagement range, and fleet cohesion commands that are currently basically useless.

D. Drop the hitpoints of all mines to 50 or less, and let it upgrade with the standard hitpoint upgrade. A large group of scouts should be able to effectively clear an entire mine field a whole lot quicker then they currently can.

E. maybe a smaller graphic for the mines...like a flashign pixel or something because they cause really bad crashes.....

Mines cloak + damage to friendlys + more strategic value + less hp = happy krunk

#3 Capital ships

A. you'd think by now that all the races got a little smarter and mounted a couple of flak guns on thier cap ship. I mean the cap ship has ervery other type of gun, but no flak guns for anti fighter roles? Come on...just 1 or 2, so that a single carrier cant run away from a cap ship in a system, and assuming a 1 on 1 the cap ship shouldn't take any damage at all from just one carrier. not 5 or 10 ok I see that, but 1 carrier can dfestroy a lone cap ship one on one? nah i just don't buy it. Lotf of people have been complaining that cap ships are too easy to kill. THIS I dont have a problem with, if anything I would sacrifice some hull points for a few flak cannons. I was really hoping this might be a part of the expansion.

B. In every space show/movie/whatever about space ships the CAPITAL ships were always able to overtake the smaller ships in a straight line race. Yeah they dont have the same acceleration or maneuverability as a smaller ship, but if something (like a carrier) is running away from a Capital ship, if it is a straight line the capital ship should easily overtake the little bastards. I'll settle for just making the CARRIERS slower though.

Flak Guns, and straight line Top speed increase.

#4 Hostile strategy vs Enlightened strategy

A. It is appearant to me that building hostility, or upgrading for destruction is A+ #1 strategy in this game. I have now triend alsmost everything i can think of to start out getting economy booming and then massing a fleet quickly rather than just spamming a bunch of ships and racing off to an nme homeworld. For some reason the winning start always seems to be the guy with the most ships. I was really hoping that this expansion might offer a couple more ways to win than just spamming more carriers than your "phoe" so in the interest of this here is what i suggest. DOUBLE the fleet upkeep increase expenditures. if ANYONE makes it to the top echelons of fleet they should be LOSING money, and should have a time limit as to how long they can win, meaning that under the duress of taxation planets will start to revolt because you poured too much money into WAR and not enough into economy. ALso if you go too far with fleet you should be able to "Scuttle" your logistics level, becauase if you lose to much money becuase you built too much fleet you lose. no fight no nothing. When my fleet gets wiped out by mines I dont want to be paying 19% of my income. If you want to go back up of course you have to REBUY the level, but at lease the retreating party gets a fighting chance to recover.

This is all for now, I'm sure I will have a lot more input later.

 

40,329 views 20 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top

Fix your formatting, that's just about unreadable! 

Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top

good post and good points, but you should move it to ...... the beta forums :grin:

Offworld Trading Company
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top

Won't bother to read that until you get that all into normal font/colors...please

Reply #4 from Stardock Forums Top

Quoting Phalnax811, reply 3
Won't bother to read that until you get that all into normal font/colors...please
End of Phalnax811's quote

wow thanks phalanx, The problem with this post is that it is done in IMPULSE instead of done from the website. I have reposted in the beta and attempted to fix it for the website.

Reply #5 from Stardock Forums Top

Very good points, welcome changes if made : D.

Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top

I really like the idea of slowing down carriers.... maybe also slow down how quickly strike craft are built. I still believe that light frigates and fighters (to take out LRF's) are the way to go against carrier/SC spam, just my own opinion. You just have to do some scouting to figure out what your opponent's mix is. But I would like to see the carrier speed slowed significantly (maybe by as much as 50%). That would give the carrier spam strategy a sort of commitment risk (no more hit and run) that I think would balance it out. Another idea too would be to make their phase jump speed slower (strike craft take even longer to dock). Anyway, good ideas Krunk!

Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top

Good stuff. I think that carriers should not build strike craft while in combat. Its just to unrealistic and so very annoying. You can have a greater fighter force and defeat all nme squads and your fighters still chasing new squads instead of attacking ships that are being built every few seconds. Come on.

Reply #8 from Stardock Forums Top

I have only played advent so far, but I think most of this can carry over:

Have to aggree on the carriers. Its just getting silly online.

Maybe make them slow when the fighters/bombers are not docked, or make them slow when regenerating craft (like the engines energy being used to regenerate the craft rather than fly). Have this as an ability that is turned on/off. And so maybe they should spawn with fighters already built, or the first 2/3 are built instantly? Then when they are regenerating craft they really are sitting ducks, and will need other ships to escort them.

And I have an issue with advent smart mines : they move too slow. Everything can moves just as fast as them. Id have thought the advent would think about that!.

I also have a small issue regards smart mines and the AI - they seem to place them in reasonable places, but always in a tight bunch and not spread around enough I feel. Makes them easy to avoid because they seem to have such a short range. In addition, if my planet is surrounded by smart mines, the AI will quite happily move his planet bombarders within the mine field and get himself killed, instead of holding off and/or sending something in to be rid of the the mines.

And yes I have to aggree, mines should be invisible and a surprise, not an easy target to avoid. But there should be some method of destroying mines when detected (maybe with the new solanus type - it doesnt seem to be very useful for much atm).

Reply #9 from Stardock Forums Top

A bug i've noticed with the starbases. In multiplayer (not singleplayer) I cant seem to upgrade them, and when I build one, it screws up my economy. For instance, exploring a planet somehow costs thousands of credits/metal/crystal (lists as normal still, but when you click it, thousands are taken away) It even goes into the negatives!

this comic sums up my ffffrustration: http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b95/MB2456/Funny/sinsrage.jpg

Reply #10 from Stardock Forums Top

has anyone uninstazlled entrichment done a full update and had sins of a solar empire the game you have to have first disappear from the games list after entichment does its last bit of copying from the sins update witch is about 734 meg..

So what im trying to say is uninstall entichment , reinstzll should be 90 meg

it says its waiting on orgional sins to update click on sins updates to 734 meg

starts copying and writeing files in the game, then right at the last step it starts copying in entrichment.

 

and sins disspears from games list any idears ?

Reply #11 from Stardock Forums Top

this is just to get this topic at the top of the forums again. has anyone had the above trouble where the install of entrichment deltes sins orgional icon?

Reply #12 from Stardock Forums Top

I don't like mines. They just bog the game down. The computer goes crazy with them makes 1/2 a planet system filled up with them. If you do include mines in the final version I suggest you add an option to disable/remove them from the game.

Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top

I don't like mines. They just bog the game down. The computer goes crazy with them makes 1/2 a planet system filled up with them. If you do include mines in the final version I suggest you add an option to disable/remove them from the game.
End of quote

Or just limit how many of them you can have around a single planet.

Started a new game, working on seeing how well it plays.

Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top

Ok, For you peeps that just haven't figured it out yet. Everything can shoot mines. If you make a balanced flt with scouts as part of the balance. Mine fields are just a delaying tactic. Which is as it should be. No you just can't tear into a grav well with wreckless abandon. It might require you to think (OMG) and prepare a proper attack. The mines in addition to the starbases w/ defensive structures makes your flank and rear less exploitable not unexploitable. Grow up look at the situation rationally and just try to see the method behind the madness. ;P

Reply #15 from Stardock Forums Top

I totally agree with dark cloud. IT makes it more difficult, but not imposible, and when you do finally find a way through it THAT will be the new status quo for assaulting a heavily mines planetary system.

Reply #16 from Stardock Forums Top

I had plenty of scouts. There was so many mines in the systems it was just silly. The mines also seem to slow the game down. Even with a quad core with 4 gig of ram the game was crawling.

 

try playing some single player games

 

With so much extra defense as it is I don't much value in mines because of the bog down and slow down of the game. Maybe the mines need to limited in amount and maybe put a time limit on them. A mine sweeper unit to clear conquered system wouldn't be a bad thing either. Your ships don't always activly hunt the mines.

Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting CobraA1, reply 13

I don't like mines. They just bog the game down. The computer goes crazy with them makes 1/2 a planet system filled up with them. If you do include mines in the final version I suggest you add an option to disable/remove them from the game.


Or just limit how many of them you can have around a single planet.

Started a new game, working on seeing how well it plays.
End of CobraA1's quote

 

That sounds like a good idea, it could all depend ont the planet's Tactical upgrades. For example,

5 tactical slots = 15 mines

10 tactical slots = 30 mines

15 tactical slots = 45 mines

20 tactical slots = 60 mines

25 tactical slots = 75 mines

30 tactical slots = 90 mines

35 tactical slots = 105 mines

40 tactical slots = 120 mines

 

So a FULLY upgraded planet would have a maximum of:

- Asteroid colony : 75 mines

- Terran planet: 105 mines

- Ice planet: 105 mines

- Volcanic planet: 120 mines

Reply #18 from Stardock Forums Top

+1 for limiting mines.  Although I would suggest the limit to be based on some other factor, like your command/supply level, and have it be a global total for ALL planets.  That way there wouldn't be a minefield everywhere, there would be a handful of strong minefields that would actually be an obstacle.

Gah, rewrote this post about 7 times now, trying to make some kind of sense.  Hopefully this conveys my feelings on the matter:

Mines are cool.  I like mines.  But I don't like mines to be something you see every-freaking-where.  In my last game, I found mines to be prohibitively expensive to deploy in large numbers, which is excellent.  I built about 120 in one system and they were very awesome.  They blew shit up colorfully and with style, which is the best way for shit to explode.

But let me tell you a story: I built a field of about 150 mines at my homeworld, on a small map.  It's the map where you start right next to your enemy homeworld and there's sort of a ring of planets to the other side... anyway.  I made a bad choice or two and my homeworld was attacked.  I didn't have a chance, really, I was just outplayed.  However the enemy underestimated the size of my minefield.  When my fleet arrived (my "fleet" was now 2 damaged capital ships and a handful of attendant vessels... yes, I was doing badly) I attacked my homeworld and was about 2/3 of the way to wiping out the enemy's newest colony, when their fleet arrived.  I put up a damn good fight for what I had, but "accidentally" got myself cornered and couldn't retreat.  The enemy ships closed in for the kill.  And then the explosions started.  Of my hundred or so remaining mines, about 40 went off before the enemy thought better of it and retreated, losing a good chunk of the fleet in the process.

No, I'm lying, that didn't happen.  Because the enemy would've known about the mines being there, since he can see them without even trying.  I want a proper frakking minefield.  Radar-invisible, except for special units - and even those special units must have a small detection radius.  Mines SHOULD be auto-targetted with high priority once they're detected, but they should not be targetted ACCURATELY.  They're a freaking bomb with a cloaking device attached, floating about in the vast open field of space, they're not easy to hit.  I figure, one out of every 10 shots should hit, and it should take a couple of decent hits for them to actually explode.

This way everyone's happy.  Mines are not overused, since they are limited by your supply level and are also expensive.  They aren't just scattered anywhere, they're only used where strategically appropriate, otherwise they'll be too thinly scattered and ineffective.  And they're not glowing red icons saying "If you move here, you'll die."  They'll still be detectable, but NOT IF YOU AREN'T LOOKING FOR THEM.

 

Finally, one random suggestion: Make mines cause damage to friendly units that are too close.  That includes mines, by the way - so building too dense of a field would leave you with the risk of the entire thing exploding.

Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top

Quoting Dargoon999, reply 17



Quoting CobraA1,
reply 13

I don't like mines. They just bog the game down. The computer goes crazy with them makes 1/2 a planet system filled up with them. If you do include mines in the final version I suggest you add an option to disable/remove them from the game.


End of Dargoon999's quote

Fine limit mines, but what abount mining neutral areas. you should be able to have a certain number of tactical spots on a starbase so you can lay mines in other areas...maybe turrets and other support abilities would be nice too.

IF you do limit mines though they need to be a lot more powerful and have about triple thier current activation range.

Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top

A. It is appearant to me that building hostility, or upgrading for destruction is A+ #1 strategy in this game. I have now triend alsmost everything i can think of to start out getting economy booming and then massing a fleet quickly rather than just spamming a bunch of ships and racing off to an nme homeworld. For some reason the winning start always seems to be the guy with the most ships. I was really hoping that this expansion might offer a couple more ways to win than just spamming more carriers than your "phoe"

End of quote

This is a VERY good point.

The fleet supply cost shouldn't be a % of your income but a set amount. An X amount of ships should cost the exact same to upkeep, regardless of your income. All the % does is encourage rushing because with a smaller income you are actually paying LESS for your ships. Non-existent economies should never be allowed to maintain the huge rush fleets that are the norm in multiplayer.

ALso if you go too far with fleet you should be able to "Scuttle" your logistics level, becauase if you lose to much money becuase you built too much fleet you lose. no fight no nothing. When my fleet gets wiped out by mines I dont want to be paying 19% of my income. If you want to go back up of course you have to REBUY the level, but at lease the retreating party gets a fighting chance to recover.
End of quote

Again, agree 100%.