Was in a huge single player game, and the AI doesnt play by the same rules

or : Who wouldnt like instant friends in the galaxy?!

from Sins Forums

Ok, I really love this game (precursor to the "but this ticks me off" part :)), and this is my 4th Huge game.

But this is the first time this has occured.

I created the game with normal settings, 8 players, Pirates, and 2 out of the 8 AIs were hard, and the other 6 were on normal.


The solar system I started out in ends up containing 4 AIs, one of which is a hard AI.  The solar system had about 28 planets total.

About half way through, (before my demise) and 20 minutes in, the Hard AI decides to attack one of my planets - no big deal, iv got the skill and the ships to combat their assault.

Then I notice that one of the computers that were boxed in by me, who are near my planet that is under attack, joined the fight against me.  3 minutes later, the other 2 AIs join in the assault against me.


Now before this I attempted to boost my standing with the other factions, however I cant do all of them at once because I dont have the fleets to appease all of their missions and defend my bases at once.  So even if I had chose to make friends with 2 of them, it would have been a long stretch to defeat both computers fleets on two seperate fronts to gain access to the mission objectives, and defend my position from the other two AI.


But!  After watching the recording, the AIs dont need to do the same thing I have to do to make friends ; I watched the Hard AI diplomacy screen before my planet was attacked, and boom - within about 3 minutes all the players in the solar system decided they wanted to form ceace fire/fleet & planet vision/cooperation in attacks.

Their percentage of trust with eachother was at 0%, but that wasnt as alarming as : "Hey, wanna be friends?" "Sure thing!  Here is what im going to do next, join me for this panty-raid!" - where as when they talk to me "Hey there, wanna call a ceace fire?" "Nah, im good, im not the kinda guy to do something like that for no good reason.  You seem like a nice guy though."

I reviewed my replay, nothing I could have done could have prevented the attack.  I built as many ships as I could, almost as fast as the Hard AI, but since they decided to gang up on me there was no way to stop it.

Is it a bit odd that iv got to jump through hoops to make someone happy, but total strangers can just decide to be friends on a whim?  It obviously lead to my empires death, my first defeat in months, but there was no way to avoid it, and im a bit miffed that the computer doesnt have to play by the same rules I do.  Id like to see the computer play by the same rules, or be on some sort of equal footing, to make this a more believable situation, or at least a situation that could be combatted.

Was the only way to win not to play?  What is the purpose of starting a game where the outcome must be defeat?  What were the odds that all of them would decide to become friends at the same time? I wouldnt mind losing so much, if there was something to learn from it, but in this case the lesson seems to be "dont play against a stacked deck" - no surprise there  :)


I like my single player and multi player games, but id like to see this issue fixed at some point.  I think what ever causes it makes this scenario unrealistic, and obviously no fun at all.

Thanks for your time!

57,107 views 37 replies
Reply #1 from Sins Forums Top
I've had this happen to me, and I've seen complaints about it before.

Though it doesn't happen far more often than it does for me.
Reply #2 from Sins Forums Top
I just played a huge multi star so 5 systems, 5 plaers and 2 of them were in my sytem and 3 others were completely empty, this happens no matter how i aragnge the comps befor the game starts. that bull shit. what was worse is that ther all on hard. 3 hr and i just got the egde.
Sins of a Solar Empire: Rebellion
Reply #3 from Sins Forums Top
Hey well that at least answered one of my questions I was about to ask, and it makes it so I dont have to post about this same topic. Though my situation didn't happen the same way yours did Kuro. I was about to ask whether the AI can alliance with each other, since I'm just finishing up a medium random map and I, as far as I can tell, was the only person who ever had cease fires and alliances up and running. (Now that I've looked at your post I would say it might be because I was playing against Normal AI and it was a medium map so kinda small.)

I do agree that the comp should have to build up its' standing with the other AI's before alliances could be made. It definitly is a bummer when it takes you 15-25 minutes to get a cease fire (unless missions are only resource of course) and the computer could just make them right there instantaneously without building up trust. I also hope this is corrected in a future patch. I am almost surprised that this issue was even an issue in the first place, obviously it gives the AI an unfair advantage and (from what I've seen) developers under Stardock normally look at those angles (no offense Ironclad, GREAT GAME!).

I have also thought was a little annoying was the fact that the only way to build trust with another nation was to do "their" missions. Why do I have to spend my resources and my ships always completing their demands. I thought it would be nice to be able to give missions to other AI as well. I know there are reasons why this is not done (players only giving missions instead of doing any, and the fact that putting a trust bar for the player is kinda restricting and unbelievable since the player gets to choose how his/her nation reacts to other empires.), but I still think it would be nice, maybe allow you to demand credits or resources from other empires. I just think it is a little annoying that you are the only one giving up resources to other nations.

Oh, and could anyone tell me how to view alliances between other nations? I dont think it shows it in the diplomacy screen. (End with a noob quesion, yesss!)
Reply #4 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, and could anyone tell me how to view alliances between other nations? I dont think it shows it in the diplomacy screen.
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It isn't possible, but it was also done intentionally and not an oversight :p
Reply #5 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, and could anyone tell me how to view alliances between other nations?
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You guess. ;)
Reply #6 from Sins Forums Top
Ah, ok I would see how it would be a good idea to not be able to see the other empire's alliances, but then how did Kuro know that all the AI in his solar system were allianced? It could have been coincidence that they all decided that he/she (Can't see your Gender information, and I want to cover my bases) was a juicy target? ...Actually I think I answered my own question in my head just now, but I feel like posting something. ^.^ Probably from watching the replay Kuro noticed that the when the other AI struck his planet, they didn't fight each other at all...or not I dont know. *throws hands in the air like he just dont care!*
Reply #7 from Sins Forums Top
The AI is meant to "gang up" on the most threatening empire, so they tend to form alliances on the biggest threat (which is not always the player). But they do fight themselves a lot, as well. And of course, any alliances you make before you reach that "biggest threat" point will be preserved, the AI doesn't arbitrarily break them off, only when their happiness drops.
Reply #8 from Sins Forums Top
ok cool, that answers anything I can think of. Anyone else agree with Kuro's statements?
Reply #9 from Sins Forums Top
Just do locked teams.

I personally feel that the missions/attitude % are pure BS anyway.
Reply #10 from Sins Forums Top
yup, I do locked teams now. It's a lot less troubles.

I'm just mad that the AI I got as a teamate is a non-aggressive researcher or something... I gotta do all the fighting on my own and he's just like: oh nice job comrade!

Also, can someone explain to me why my teammate in locked teams will sometimes refuse to attack another empire, and sometimes will accept it?
Reply #11 from Sins Forums Top
Also, can someone explain to me why my teammate in locked teams will sometimes refuse to attack another empire, and sometimes will accept it?
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Are you running 1.05 or the beta 1.09? There have been reports in 1.09 that the allies on locked teams refuse to attack enemies, but I've not heard it in 1.05.
Reply #12 from Sins Forums Top
1.05, they do that pretty often.

I'll tell him to attack an enemy and he'll respond: sorry, I don't think our allies would appreciate.

Then a few minutes he'll say: Okay I'll do it.

Obviously, everytime he says he'll do it, I'll have to wait a good 15 minutes before he decides to move.
Reply #13 from Sins Forums Top
That's strange. Can you save the game when this happens and email it to support@ironcladgames.com and describe the behavior? It definitely sounds wonky, and with the save game they can try it out and see what's up.
Reply #14 from Sins Forums Top
sure, how exactly can I send them a saved game? Sorry if this sounds obvious to you, I never really had to send stuff to tech support.
Reply #15 from Sins Forums Top
1.05, they do that pretty often.I'll tell him to attack an enemy and he'll respond: sorry, I don't think our allies would appreciate.Then a few minutes he'll say: Okay I'll do it.Obviously, everytime he says he'll do it, I'll have to wait a good 15 minutes before he decides to move.
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There are two ping command buttons. A red one and green one.

Use green only in friendly territory or your own. Use red only in enemy territory. The AI should start listening to you properly now. If you want to ask an ally to attack an enemy inside friendly territory , use the green button , on the enemy ships or on your ship. (cba to double check, but i think attacking enemy works). Red button in friendly territory will just make the AI go "I dont backstab" , even if you select an enemy ship to attack.

I control the AI alot, since sins is full of silent quitter noobs that leave me teamed up with them.





Reply #16 from Sins Forums Top
ahhh... thx P5yy, that was exactly my problem, I used to tell them to attack in friendly territory when I was attacked by enemy AI, that explains it all.
Reply #17 from Sins Forums Top
Oh well, looks like your problem is fixed - but in the future if you need to send them anything, just zip up the save game (it's in your user path) and attach it to the email with a description of the problem ;)
Reply #18 from Sins Forums Top
ok... thx folks!
Reply #19 from Sins Forums Top
Oh, and could anyone tell me how to view alliances between other nations? I dont think it shows it in the diplomacy screen. It isn't possible, but it was also done intentionally and not an oversight
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This is something I think would be useful actually. I wish they could implement some type of spying system. Perhaps it could work like taverns in Heroes of Might and Magic. You buy the structure and for each one or perhaps for research upgrades you learn more about your opponents alliances and who is ranked what as far as fleets/resources.
Reply #20 from Sins Forums Top
I wish they could implement some type of spying system. Perhaps it could work like taverns in Heroes of Might and Magic. You buy the structure and for each one or perhaps for research upgrades you learn more about your opponents alliances and who is ranked what as far as fleets/resources.
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Or more to the criminal underground?
Reply #21 from Sins Forums Top
Mainly the reason why they didn't make it so where you could see who was allianced is so that when you invade another empire you will have no way of knowing if another empire is on the way to support it's ally. But I do agree that it would be nice to have some way of eventually learning who was allied with who at the time (like spying as Simbjv said). I guess some might say that you could just look and see who is not attacking who, but I've been playing a large map for quite some time and I still don't have a clue if any of the computers are allied.  :LOL: 
Reply #22 from Sins Forums Top
I wish they could implement some type of spying system. Perhaps it could work like taverns in Heroes of Might and Magic. You buy the structure and for each one or perhaps for research upgrades you learn more about your opponents alliances and who is ranked what as far as fleets/resources.Or more to the criminal underground?
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Absolutely. It would make a whole lot of sense there. Could either have a flat rate, higher cost for better information or maybe even a bidding system like with pirates.
Reply #23 from Sins Forums Top
Absolutely. It would make a whole lot of sense there. Could either have a flat rate, higher cost for better information or maybe even a bidding system like with pirates.
End of quote


That could work, but I think the information shouldn't be permanent. Since Sins wants you to not know who is in an alliance I think that the information you pay for should be like a picture of who is allianced at that time, or it can last for a minute or 30 seconds or something and you would have to pay again for newer info. I like how sins has it now so I wouldn't want to make the info permanent like Gal Civ.

Reply #24 from Sins Forums Top
I agree. The information should be available at some point, but not be updated. You get a snap shot of who is dealing with whom. I like the idea of having an Intelligence structure (where obtaining this "snap shot" would be an anti-matter charged ability) but using the Criminal Underground does make more sense. Each player's info could have a price. Price goes up for that player every time you buy his info. Or maybe there is a flat rate for every player, and the rate goes up with each Intel use. Either way, I think it should get more expensive the more you use it.
Reply #25 from Sins Forums Top
Well there is where you would need to make the choice. Either have a rate at which you buy a snapshot of information or have some sort of structure that perhaps drains resources but continually spies certain information for you depending on how much you have upgraded/researched/pay towards it. One thing I like about having it in the criminal underground is that you could also have it work that you could pay the spying network to give others misinformation... so it adds to the bidding potential. Of course you don't want to make it so deep that it becomes unmanageable, but I think spying in some capacity would be a welcome addition in the expansion.