Sova Rush unbalanced?

Well.. yeah..


The sova should get slowed by about half while using Embargo, but making the ability be channeling(stops when cast, moving cancel it) would be going too far.

It's just one of the few abilities good for rushing, so in contrast to all the bad abilities it's really good. (That said, yeah it is too good as the sova can easily kite around.)

Radiance capital as advent. Drain the sova's antimatter with your ability and keep it from getting embargo off.

Always go radiance if you are playing a tec for this reason.

My radiance got killed by the Sova's bombers though, and the Sova rush typically jumps in and hits embargo while your radiance is off getting its first asteroid or planet. Also, if the Sova cruises out of range, I am not so sure that will work. It would only work I think if the Sova sits in one place, within striking range of your radiance. Stealing antimatter would succeed depending on how the other person handles the Sova rush in the first place. Also, if you are cruising your radiance around your homeworld, you are not gaining new planets which will let you build the military structures you need to get to the illuminator stage.

Possibly a good combo which would fit the circumstance of most Sova rushes: as you are getting your first asteroid, the Sova jumps into your homeworld. Instead of going back immediately, jump to another easy to colonize world...colonize your 3rd planet while the Sova embargoes your homeworld. Then using those two planets try to establish the 3 military research structures you need to get illuminators.

Trying to build research structures on your homeworld doesnt work since the bombers will destroy them.

I suspect though, that the amount of time to get that done is so great that by the time you have enough illuminators to take the Sova down, the teamates of the Sova rusher will already be in your homeworld helping him.

Uhm... let me put this straight:

We are just talking bombers since the SOVA is constantly running...

The bomber squadrons from a single, early SOVA killed your RADIANCE faster than your frigates could finish the SOVA? With a frigate yard in system (wich it can not directly assault because it has to keep running or facing the RADIANCE in a direct engagement - wich is kinda suicide)?

The embargo can be used twice to steal like 400 credits (200 each use), then antimatter has to recharge. It also SHUTS DOWN PHASE JUMP of the SOVA.

A frigate yard has 4k HP - what are those bombers doing each run? 40 (wich is not making a single DENT in the shield of a radiance, Advent have ECELLENT shields no way you could stop even the regen with two bomber squads)?

Besides... all Advent caps can carry fighters wich should be able to deal with bombers accordingly (or bombers to deal with the SOVA), and there is hangar defences also.

I don't get it... i am missing something?

Even with frigates being produced as fast as could be done given the embargo, a constantly moving sova can not really be hit by another cap ship, at least not enough. The Sova ends up being about half-way killed while my cap ship will approach being 3/4 dead, despite having about 10 or more frigates also chasing it around in circles around the gravity well. Eventually you will have to jump your cap ship out to heal, while the bombers and fighters of the Sova continue to kill first the frigates, then the structures of the planet.

A ship fleeing is only really vulnerable if it stops to jump to another system, prior to that if it just cruises around in circles it seems to have a speed advantage which a pursuing cap ship can not make up. Effectively all that can really be brought to bear against the Sova are the cap ship's fighters plus whatever frigates you can make attacking the Sova. your own cap ship will be hopelessly behind it out of range all the time, assuming the person rushing keeps the Sova moving.

What exactly don't you understand? If you look at the credit chart timeline afterward you can see the effect of the Sova is much more substantial than you make it out to be. Also, remember the fighters and bombers of the Sova are heavies so they do more damage than most cap ship fighters and bombers. Also remember if the Sova has both fighters and bombers, both the defending frigates and cap ship can be slowly demolished at the same time also.

Since the Sova rush is so early, it could easily begin before you had enough credits to even build a research structure much less research hangar defense, or build such. You also seem to ignoring the issue of time, which is rather limited before such a lengthy defense could be completed before enemy teamates can bring a proper fleet to finish you off.

If you micro the radiance properly, you can keep within range of the sova and keep burning its antimatter...No biggie.

IT's impossible for one cap to out run another within a grav well because the cap running away will have to turn. The one following can turn within the inside.

Yes, it can run away if you don't pay attention and let the ai handle having your cap ship chase it.

I always build a radience first as advent, so I don't know what you are talking about. Anti-matter burn.

I don't want to come off the wrong way, but the antimatter bomb on the radiance does work man. Both of these capital ships have the same speed, 525 i think. You can't possibly be outrun man.

Also, you say it hits before you get to your first asteroid. I beg to differ. You should be quick enough to get off to that first asteroid. Sova rush is not god man. I have countered it, it doesn't work as much people would like to think it works. The problem is it makes a player get a radiance instead of a mother ship to start a game because of a "just in case" scenario.

A Sova rush that early on is foolish and should be easily countered. But give TEC enough time to get LRMs, and a close by advent player may have a problem.

Two things.

The only weapons of the SOVA are its bombers since it can't stand and fight - if it does its toast.

Bombers tend to get creamed by fighters. Also with Hangar defences being practically the first offensive tech you can research i do not see how two bomber squads could be a threat to a homeworld or a capital, especially considering that the capital gets its own squadron at level 2 (wich can be bought).

The embargo ability of the SOVA steals like 400 credits here and then. Still with the resources from your extractors AND from the extractors of the second world you set out to conquer its still easy to keep production up. I mean 400 creds are nothing, man. Usually 500-1000 are spent on the initial pirate bidding. I am not talking credit ticks here.

You are planning abandoning homeworld because of a single carrier. How about researching and building hangar defences with bombers of your own, taking down the SOVA?

Also i tested it and sent a SOVA right to take out a frigate yard. Kinda takes forever - even with the carrier directly attacking it. I also tested it vs some Vasari capital with only bombers. Don't even get me started. That shield is not going down before ST. Nimmerleins day.

Um, how is it foolish? Its (incredibly) effective.

Effective, yes. But by no means a single carrier is able to shut down an entire planet. Thats a little over the board, don't you agree?

A Sova rush does have a few problems.

I've used it against the AI in tests, and it worked, but against a player, I don't think so. The AI charged in blindly with a Kol, then a few frigates, failing to focus fire on the Sova ( instead choosing one of my 5-6 cobalts ). My fleet concentrated on the Kol. I remained stationary to utilize the extra fire power of my platforms. It wasn't pretty, but it worked. A player would have waited to group forces before attacking, and concentrated on the Sova. I also found my opening moves were much slower, since I was rushing an attack and not expanding my empire. I didn't have a cap ship to help clear new systems. While I weakened the enemy, it weakened me as well. On the good side, it did cripple enemy production, and I was getting a nice boost to income. In a 3/4/5+ FFA game ? I would have been wide open to a counter attack. Something to think about if it's a team game. A Sova rusher is pretty defenseless, since no-ones home.

Defending against : By the time a Sova rush gets to my homeworld, I'd have at LEAST an asteroid, if not an asteroid and another planet. I don't see a lone Sova, with a few frigates, matching my Kol/Radiance and it's frigates while trapped in my gravity well. The lack of production would hurt, and rebuilding in other spots would suck, but it wouldn't put me down. Especially with my other planets sudddenly spamming frigates. Supply lines dictate my units get there a lot quicker. If my first cap was a colonizer, it just forces me to expand that much quicker.

Looking at the whole approach, it's a pretty big gamble, all depending on who's cap ship takes out who's. What are you going to do in your Sova rush if you phase jump in and find out he's got a Kol and is spamming frigates ( and happens to have them all one system over ) ? Oops !

There's already another thread on this, but I'll explain why it is counterable.

Although effective, the problem is the cap has to get there first. If it's a random map, obviously that may take a while. By that time, the opponent SHOULD have a fleet up that would counter this, because picking the Sova takes away the free firepower that is the first free cap.

Ok, so let's go to preset maps where you know where to go, obviously this is where the technique will accel because you can get there in the minimum time needed, and while it's getting there, you're building up for the second punch after the Sova, ok, I'll buy into that this sounds tempting, but it's not.

Here's why. On smaller maps where people know this rush can be coming, people tend to make the battleship. You need all the firepower you can in the beginning because you have to anticipate a rush of any kind, and the firepower helps clear pirates in the beginning. All you have to do to anticipate a Sova rush is pick the antimatter ability on the cap. The Advent anti-matter bomb on the Radiance, or the Vasari anti-matter drainer on the Devastator. You take away the embargo ability and all the opponent has is a reeeeeeeally weak capital ship with two bomber squadrons running around your home planet. He may get embargo off once or twice, but no more than that.

Now how do you get it out of ur planet? Well, the tough part to answer here is what the opponent follows up the rush with. If he sends cobalts, of course lrms, unless you're advent, in which case you may just have to do a diciple spam if you don't have illuminators teched, not great, but it'll do the job.

If he sends lrms, the only answer is more lrms, although he's now at a disadvantage. You have your lrm's plus your battleship picking off his lrm's and you should be microing so you are still sapping the antimatter of the sova.

If he sends nothing, well, he's gonna have to pull back. If he sends nothing or very little with it, that probably means he spent the resources to get level three with the Sova, a big mistake.

Now, I mentioned that Advent and Vasari can push it back, but what about TEC? This is a little more complicated because you don't have an antimatter sucking ability. The best thing to do is to expand to that second asteroid quickly, and I mean quickly.

Build:
Up Planet
Cap Factory (Kol or Dreadnaught, either will do the job, Dreadnaught gives you the seige option when you push him back though)
Scuttle the Factory once the Ship is finished
Crystal Mine
2-3 Scouts
Metal Mines
Colonizing Frigate
2 Military Labs

and so on....

Once you have that asteroid, see if you've spotted him. If he is going Sova, start an lrm spam. You will make him focus resources on pushing your cap away, and you can then focus on making enough lrms to push back his cap. Remember, you're only pushing back a capital ship that's armed with just lasers. If he does start to send frigates, you have to pick them off one by one, but since he has to send them piece meal and you have your entire fleet at your planet, you should find that you have enough of a resource income in the beginning to push this back.

You should be able to keep about 6-10 frigates chasing the cap, preferably cobalts since they're faster than the cap, and your lrm frigates plus a capital on his frigates.

Or you could use the simple answer and do your own Sova rush.

Oops, need to clarify a statement in the third to last paragraph.

*If he is going Sova, start an lrm spam. You will make him focus resources on building counter ships, and you can then focus on making enough lrms to push back his cap. Remember, you're only pushing back a capital ship that's armed with just lasers.

Personally, I care so little for TEC now, so the Sova rush isn't a problem anymore.

That I perfectly agree with! I disagreed with the guy I quoted, who said doing it was a stupid idea (as opposed to having the imbalance in the game, which is a stupid idea).

And if your TEC, you go with the Dunov... um, ick!

I have been reading up on how the Sova rushes work and last night I decided to try it out myself. Non-Random map (so I knew where to go = HAX) This is pretty much how it went:


1. Scout asap to find nearest opoenent (~4 jumps away)
2. Build capship factory + sova
3. Start moving the sova to their homeworld
4. Upgrade Sova to level 3, netting lvl2 embargo + lvl1 Heavy strike craft
5. By the time it has 1 jump left to their capital its lvl3 with max bombers.
6. Upon landing I use the Sova + 3 bomber squads to destroy their frigate factory.
7. Kite
8. Wait for LRM Back-up Fleet
9. Profit


I used this strat agaist a Tec & Advent twice(never had a Vasari player close enough).

The first TEC was able to hold me off since his ally was feeding him credits to survive. During this time I was able to colonize an asteroid adjacent to his base. Failed Attempt; however, suverely crippled him.

The second TEC left the game the second my sova showed up.... success!

The first Advent was teching economy + mothership (lol) so I pretty much melted him. Success!

The second Advent had some rediculous starting speed and was able to colonize 2 asteroids adjacent to his base. His capital was a ghost town for the first while, I got his frigate factory down aswell as 1 of his extractors via bombers. He showed up using the radiance + Diciples and burned my cap-ship to the point that I had to retreat. Failed attempt.


Am I on the right track, I see that one post (above) says upgrading your sova is bad, why? It doubles the effect of the embargo.... isn't that the point of an "embargo" rush

Well I still haven't seen Haeso show up on irc.

Yeah, you are pretty screwed playing TEC. I don't even know what vasari ship burns mana. Radiance is what I build anyway.

50-50 doesn't seem like a viable strategy to me ( why I don't use a Sova rush ). But, seems like you executed it correctly since you had some success. What fleet did you have for defense ? Did you find it slowed your own expansion ?

A quick expander will evade it every time. Most of the people I play ( LAN only, my internet connection sux ) are the same way. First 10 minutes determines a LOT of the game. You should have at least two, probably three, planets before that Sova gets to you, and an embargo won't work if they have alternate means of income ( another player or planets ).

The problem with the sova rush is that if you fail, you have a dinky sova.

You know, if you'd stop playing on pre-set maps and go with random ones a "rush" would never be a problem. Not only would you have to wade through the "local militia" at all the planets along the way, plus avoid the pirate base wherever it may be, but you would actually have to take time finding the opponents' home planet. Of course if you're playing on a pre-set map you'll know from the start exactly where their homeworld is, plus all of the other planets along the way, and there goes most of the challenge. Why people don't play more random maps is beyond me.

In my opinion the concept of a pre-set map kind of ruins the game. It detracts from the 4X component of this game (the "eXplore part"). I feel like it turns Sins into a glorified RTS.